BoxRec

dempseyfire wrote:An interesting topic. Williard I think was a carbon copy of Vitali Klitschko but with better stamina, better inside fight game, and slightly more power, but he also had less athleticism and slightly worse defense. I think Williard could come on strong to take a 12 rd decision over Vitali. I think Cooney beats Wlad but loses to Vitali, but he has a strong puncher's chance (he hit harder than Sanders).
I've seen some Simon film but not recently enough to make accurate comparisons.
McCline would lose to Baer. McCline is a glorified club fighter, who interestingly enough built his resume against other inept giants (Grant, Briggs Whitaker etc.)
Vitali vs Baer would be a toss up to me. A real bloody fight, pretty entertaining.
Its difficult to gauge Carnera, but wins over Uzcudun, Sharkey (I don't buy the dive story), and Loughran are pretty impressive. He was very durable and outside of Bowe the best giant inside fighter I've seen. I still think either Klitschko beats him, but a fight with McCline would be a toss-up for me. If scheduled for 15 rds I'd edge Primo but in a 10 rounder McCline.
Bowe is also difficult to gauge. Had great trilogy with Holyfield but outside of that had a very protected record, he probably deserved to lose against Tubbs, and we'll never know if the Golota fights were more due to Bowe's weight loss issues or the fact he was finally facing a durable power puncher. Still, he knocks out Wlad and McCline, beats Baer by decision and has toss up fights with Vitali, Williard, and Cooney.
Lennox Lewis in a 12 rounder loses to Bowe by decision but beats all the other giants (Cooney has a real puncher's chance as well though) 15 rds is a different story, as Lewis had stamina issues and never went 15 rds in his life. I think over 15 a fight with Williard would be a toss up. Baer probably loses to Lewis by KO.
Someone who you may want to add to this list is 6'4 Fred Fulton (is that big enough?), who I think in a tournament would win all the marbles. He was basically a white Lennox Lewis (snapping jab, reach, suceptable to hard punch) but I believe more durable and a much better inside fighter.

lemans7 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:An interesting topic. Williard I think was a carbon copy of Vitali Klitschko but with better stamina, better inside fight game, and slightly more power, but he also had less athleticism and slightly worse defense. I think Williard could come on strong to take a 12 rd decision over Vitali. I think Cooney beats Wlad but loses to Vitali, but he has a strong puncher's chance (he hit harder than Sanders).
I've seen some Simon film but not recently enough to make accurate comparisons.
McCline would lose to Baer. McCline is a glorified club fighter, who interestingly enough built his resume against other inept giants (Grant, Briggs Whitaker etc.)
Vitali vs Baer would be a toss up to me. A real bloody fight, pretty entertaining.
Its difficult to gauge Carnera, but wins over Uzcudun, Sharkey (I don't buy the dive story), and Loughran are pretty impressive. He was very durable and outside of Bowe the best giant inside fighter I've seen. I still think either Klitschko beats him, but a fight with McCline would be a toss-up for me. If scheduled for 15 rds I'd edge Primo but in a 10 rounder McCline.
Bowe is also difficult to gauge. Had great trilogy with Holyfield but outside of that had a very protected record, he probably deserved to lose against Tubbs, and we'll never know if the Golota fights were more due to Bowe's weight loss issues or the fact he was finally facing a durable power puncher. Still, he knocks out Wlad and McCline, beats Baer by decision and has toss up fights with Vitali, Williard, and Cooney.
Lennox Lewis in a 12 rounder loses to Bowe by decision but beats all the other giants (Cooney has a real puncher's chance as well though) 15 rds is a different story, as Lewis had stamina issues and never went 15 rds in his life. I think over 15 a fight with Williard would be a toss up. Baer probably loses to Lewis by KO.
Someone who you may want to add to this list is 6'4 Fred Fulton (is that big enough?), who I think in a tournament would win all the marbles. He was basically a white Lennox Lewis (snapping jab, reach, suceptable to hard punch) but I believe more durable and a much better inside fighter.

Yeah! Dempseyfire 6/4 is already a giant in boxing so i should included Golota and Fulton too. And congratulations you are a boxing expert. I think Abe Simon was too slow, very strong but too slow. Buddy Baer had a good left hook. And Jess Willard good stamina but not punching power. Primo another strong man but lack of punching power most of his wins were fixed. But i guess his knock out of Sharkey was not a dive. Today's giants i think has a better jab and are more quicker than their ancestors.

dempseyfire wrote:

lemans7 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:An interesting topic. Williard I think was a carbon copy of Vitali Klitschko but with better stamina, better inside fight game, and slightly more power, but he also had less athleticism and slightly worse defense. I think Williard could come on strong to take a 12 rd decision over Vitali. I think Cooney beats Wlad but loses to Vitali, but he has a strong puncher's chance (he hit harder than Sanders).
I've seen some Simon film but not recently enough to make accurate comparisons.
McCline would lose to Baer. McCline is a glorified club fighter, who interestingly enough built his resume against other inept giants (Grant, Briggs Whitaker etc.)
Vitali vs Baer would be a toss up to me. A real bloody fight, pretty entertaining.
Its difficult to gauge Carnera, but wins over Uzcudun, Sharkey (I don't buy the dive story), and Loughran are pretty impressive. He was very durable and outside of Bowe the best giant inside fighter I've seen. I still think either Klitschko beats him, but a fight with McCline would be a toss-up for me. If scheduled for 15 rds I'd edge Primo but in a 10 rounder McCline.
Bowe is also difficult to gauge. Had great trilogy with Holyfield but outside of that had a very protected record, he probably deserved to lose against Tubbs, and we'll never know if the Golota fights were more due to Bowe's weight loss issues or the fact he was finally facing a durable power puncher. Still, he knocks out Wlad and McCline, beats Baer by decision and has toss up fights with Vitali, Williard, and Cooney.
Lennox Lewis in a 12 rounder loses to Bowe by decision but beats all the other giants (Cooney has a real puncher's chance as well though) 15 rds is a different story, as Lewis had stamina issues and never went 15 rds in his life. I think over 15 a fight with Williard would be a toss up. Baer probably loses to Lewis by KO.
Someone who you may want to add to this list is 6'4 Fred Fulton (is that big enough?), who I think in a tournament would win all the marbles. He was basically a white Lennox Lewis (snapping jab, reach, suceptable to hard punch) but I believe more durable and a much better inside fighter.

Yeah! Dempseyfire 6/4 is already a giant in boxing so i should included Golota and Fulton too. And congratulations you are a boxing expert. I think Abe Simon was too slow, very strong but too slow. Buddy Baer had a good left hook. And Jess Willard good stamina but not punching power. Primo another strong man but lack of punching power most of his wins were fixed. But i guess his knock out of Sharkey was not a dive. Today's giants i think has a better jab and are more quicker than their ancestors.

Williard was known for possessing exceptional punching power. His right uppercut ranks alongside history's hardest punches. He drove one fighters' nose bone through his brain with the uppercut, which sadly killed him. His boxing skill can be debated but if you read the accounts of the time the man had serious power.
Primo yes had the punching power of a little girl (despite possessing incredible body strength)

dempseyfire wrote:

lemans7 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:An interesting topic. Williard I think was a carbon copy of Vitali Klitschko but with better stamina, better inside fight game, and slightly more power, but he also had less athleticism and slightly worse defense. I think Williard could come on strong to take a 12 rd decision over Vitali. I think Cooney beats Wlad but loses to Vitali, but he has a strong puncher's chance (he hit harder than Sanders).
I've seen some Simon film but not recently enough to make accurate comparisons.
McCline would lose to Baer. McCline is a glorified club fighter, who interestingly enough built his resume against other inept giants (Grant, Briggs Whitaker etc.)
Vitali vs Baer would be a toss up to me. A real bloody fight, pretty entertaining.
Its difficult to gauge Carnera, but wins over Uzcudun, Sharkey (I don't buy the dive story), and Loughran are pretty impressive. He was very durable and outside of Bowe the best giant inside fighter I've seen. I still think either Klitschko beats him, but a fight with McCline would be a toss-up for me. If scheduled for 15 rds I'd edge Primo but in a 10 rounder McCline.
Bowe is also difficult to gauge. Had great trilogy with Holyfield but outside of that had a very protected record, he probably deserved to lose against Tubbs, and we'll never know if the Golota fights were more due to Bowe's weight loss issues or the fact he was finally facing a durable power puncher. Still, he knocks out Wlad and McCline, beats Baer by decision and has toss up fights with Vitali, Williard, and Cooney.
Lennox Lewis in a 12 rounder loses to Bowe by decision but beats all the other giants (Cooney has a real puncher's chance as well though) 15 rds is a different story, as Lewis had stamina issues and never went 15 rds in his life. I think over 15 a fight with Williard would be a toss up. Baer probably loses to Lewis by KO.
Someone who you may want to add to this list is 6'4 Fred Fulton (is that big enough?), who I think in a tournament would win all the marbles. He was basically a white Lennox Lewis (snapping jab, reach, suceptable to hard punch) but I believe more durable and a much better inside fighter.

Yeah! Dempseyfire 6/4 is already a giant in boxing so i should included Golota and Fulton too. And congratulations you are a boxing expert. I think Abe Simon was too slow, very strong but too slow. Buddy Baer had a good left hook. And Jess Willard good stamina but not punching power. Primo another strong man but lack of punching power most of his wins were fixed. But i guess his knock out of Sharkey was not a dive. Today's giants i think has a better jab and are more quicker than their ancestors.

Williard was known for possessing exceptional punching power. His right uppercut ranks alongside history's hardest punches. He drove one fighters' nose bone through his brain with the uppercut, which sadly killed him. His boxing skill can be debated but if you read the accounts of the time the man had serious power.
Primo yes had the punching power of a little girl (despite possessing incredible body strength)

lemans7 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

lemans7 wrote:Yeah! Dempseyfire 6/4 is already a giant in boxing so i should included Golota and Fulton too. And congratulations you are a boxing expert. I think Abe Simon was too slow, very strong but too slow. Buddy Baer had a good left hook. And Jess Willard good stamina but not punching power. Primo another strong man but lack of punching power most of his wins were fixed. But i guess his knock out of Sharkey was not a dive. Today's giants i think has a better jab and are more quicker than their ancestors.

Williard was known for possessing exceptional punching power. His right uppercut ranks alongside history's hardest punches. He drove one fighters' nose bone through his brain with the uppercut, which sadly killed him. His boxing skill can be debated but if you read the accounts of the time the man had serious power.
Primo yes had the punching power of a little girl (despite possessing incredible body strength)

I have to read more about Jess Willard, but the ring magazine in a 1980's issue qualified Willard punching power from 1 to 10 to a 6. He faild to knock out Tommy Lougran and Paulino Uzcudum

dempseyfire wrote:

lemans7 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: Williard was known for possessing exceptional punching power. His right uppercut ranks alongside history's hardest punches. He drove one fighters' nose bone through his brain with the uppercut, which sadly killed him. His boxing skill can be debated but if you read the accounts of the time the man had serious power.
Primo yes had the punching power of a little girl (despite possessing incredible body strength)

I have to read more about Jess Willard, but the ring magazine in a 1980's issue qualified Willard punching power from 1 to 10 to a 6. He faild to knock out Tommy Lougran and Paulino Uzcudum

That was Carnera not Williard . . .

dempseyfire wrote: 15 rds is a different story, as Lewis had stamina issues and never went 15 rds in his life. I think over 15 a fight with Williard would be a toss up. .

overhand_right wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: 15 rds is a different story, as Lewis had stamina issues and never went 15 rds in his life. I think over 15 a fight with Williard would be a toss up. .

when did lennox lewis's stamina ever let him down?

he went hard 10 and 12 rd fights more than once and never lost so what is this?

dempseyfire wrote:
Lennox Lewis in a 12 rounder loses to Bowe

lemans7 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

lemans7 wrote: I have to read more about Jess Willard, but the ring magazine in a 1980's issue qualified Willard punching power from 1 to 10 to a 6. He faild to knock out Tommy Lougran and Paulino Uzcudum

That was Carnera not Williard . . .

You are correct. i don't remember the names of Willard 2 defences before Dempsey but if my memory don't fail me again he won those 2 defences of his title by 20 round decision.

6 Pack wrote:He got a news paper decision over Moran (who was a legit contender), and he also fought some guy named Sailor WHite or Sailor BUrke or something like that. THe fight is rarely listed as being for the title, but I guess it all depends who you ask now.

When he fought Dempsey he was in pretty bad shape. Looked slow and easy to hit. Dempsey was also 24 and on fire . That title defense was brutal. Rarely do you see a heavyweight Champion loose his belt in such a once sided masacre like what took place in 1919.

6 Pack wrote:Vitaly Klitschko moves his hands and upperbody pretty well for such a big man. He also has stopped almost ALL of his opponents. He would beat Willard, Carnera, Buddy Baer.

I really don't see how any one can say Willard had better inside fighting than Vitaly. Or that Fulton had better inside fighting. I have seen my fair share of footage of old fights, and from what I saw from WIllard, he won by using his height and reach on smaller opponents. BUt infighting, have not seen any of it. NOt that VItaly fights on the inside much, but saying Willard had better inside fighting seems like more of an assumption.

Same with Fulton. I have read about him, wrote articles on him, but have not seen any fight footage of him, and have not seen his infighting abilities.

I tend to go with the modern guys beating the oldies. The sport has evolved and so have the athletes (like most sports). THis is not always the case of course, but Lewis was a very special big man. Vitaly is harder to call right now as his career is not over. He may prove to be great, or he may loose his next fight. Bowe could fight like hell too.

Don't get me wrong, I like Willard, FUlton and all those other white hope era boxers (Morris, Wills, Palzer are a few other giants from that era) but alot has changed since then.

BTW Carnera was the least skilled of the bunch in my books.

6 Pack wrote:Sure the Baer-Carnera fight was a beating too, but Carnera did not take the damage Willard took. Carnera kept getting up and lasted until the 11th round!

6 Pack wrote:gensu3k1, exactly!

Dempseyfire, you mention sportswriters from that era commenting on WIllard's jab. Have you read what else they say about him? For every good thing they say about his technique the is some thing bashing him as slow, basic, inactive, easy to hit, etc.

I seen that Dempsey fight, you really were impressed with ol' WIllard in that fight? Can I imagine VItaly doing better in that fight? I can't imagine him doing much worst .