BoxRec

Chocolito has moved up 2 weight classes since his debut. He has nowhere to go but up for minimumweight, of course, but he is tearing through each division.

Undefeated 39-0
Defeated 4 former and present world champs
Defended minimum weight title 3 times
Defended Lt Fly Title 4 times
Challenging lineal and Ring Mag Fly(112) titles against Akira Yaegashi #1 ranked by BoxRec

Questions is, will this make his deserving of P4P status, or are the little guys DOOMED to be overlooked their whole careers?

He's in my top 10.

I have him in the top 5, he's a machine.

I would save the P4P talk until AFTER he fights Yaegashi. His record is nice but he's fought very few quality opponents.

jujigatame wrote:I would save the P4P talk until AFTER he fights Yaegashi. His record is nice but he's fought very few quality opponents.

I dunno...I tend to feel the likes of Niida, Takayama, Vargas, Hirales, Estrada and Rodriguez Jr are pretty damned good with the ones in bold being exceptional. Then look at the way he's blown away fringe guys like Blanquet.

His issue, like many below 140, is that his opponents aren't known to most fans so he gets crap for it.

Boxing Prospect wrote:

jujigatame wrote:I would save the P4P talk until AFTER he fights Yaegashi. His record is nice but he's fought very few quality opponents.

I dunno...I tend to feel the likes of Niida, Takayama, Vargas, Hirales, Estrada and Rodriguez Jr are pretty damned good with the ones in bold being exceptional. Then look at the way he's blown away fringe guys like Blanquet.

His issue, like many below 140, is that his opponents aren't known to most fans so he gets crap for it.

I dunno, I'm not impressed by too many of those names:

Niida - Good fighter. Not an HOFer or anything but solid.

Takayama - A step below Niida. Very inconsistent throughout his career.

Vargas - Very limited, mediocre fighter.

Hirales - Decent fringe contender I guess but no more than that.

Estrada - Very good fighter, no arguments there.

Rodriguez - Not sure what to make of this. Gonzalez beat him when he was only 20 years old and 2 weight classes above where he's now having success.

So really, I think he has 2-3 noteworthy wins. That's a pretty light resume for a P4P guy. IMO if anyone under 122 is deserving of P4P status it's probably Yamanaka who has been silently dominating the bantamweight division with KO after KO.

My knowledge of the little guys is incredibly shyte. I've never seen this man fight. God only knows why this stuff is never broadcast over here.

jujigatame wrote:

Boxing Prospect wrote:

jujigatame wrote:I would save the P4P talk until AFTER he fights Yaegashi. His record is nice but he's fought very few quality opponents.

I dunno...I tend to feel the likes of Niida, Takayama, Vargas, Hirales, Estrada and Rodriguez Jr are pretty damned good with the ones in bold being exceptional. Then look at the way he's blown away fringe guys like Blanquet.

His issue, like many below 140, is that his opponents aren't known to most fans so he gets crap for it.

I dunno, I'm not impressed by too many of those names:

Niida - Good fighter. Not an HOFer or anything but solid.

Takayama - A step below Niida. Very inconsistent throughout his career.

Vargas - Very limited, mediocre fighter.

Hirales - Decent fringe contender I guess but no more than that.

Estrada - Very good fighter, no arguments there.

Rodriguez - Not sure what to make of this. Gonzalez beat him when he was only 20 years old and 2 weight classes above where he's now having success.

So really, I think he has 2-3 noteworthy wins. That's a pretty light resume for a P4P guy. IMO if anyone under 122 is deserving of P4P status it's probably Yamanaka who has been silently dominating the bantamweight division with KO after KO.

...and when he beats Yaegashi will it be a case of Yaegashi not being a HOF'mer, who was in his 30's had been in lots of wars?

Vargas is limited I'll give you that, very hard to call Takayama inconsistent but even you'd need to accept THE MANNER in which Gonzalez battered him was impressive, no one had up to that point, or has since, battered Takayama who did little more than survive in the later rounds.

RE-Rodriguez he was fighting at 112 himself going into that fight.

If you're looking SOLELY at resume's Gonzalez's resume is a hell of a lot stronger than Rigondeaux's for example...

Nah man, Yaegashi is legit. Best opponent of Gonzalez's career and a lot better than Niida who was always highly rated but who I never found to be anything special. It's a great fight and I'm bummed it won't get any attention stateside.

I don't think it's particularly controversial to call Takayama inconsistent. He has a few good wins but also a lot of losses. He can be hit-or-miss.

Yes, Rodriguez was fighting at 112 back then but he was a complete nobody at the time and he didn't have any success until he dropped to 105.

That's kind of a crazy statement to make about Rigondeaux. Donaire was considered a serious P4P guy and was better than anyone Gonzalez has fought by a HUGE margin. Not to mention that if you're counting guys like Vargas and Hirales as quality opponents you may as well count everyone Rigondeaux has faced for the last 4 years.

I firmly agree with the Rigo statement, Donaire being overrated on these mythical lists shouldn't weigh against Roman. I never had Nonito top 10, right in the same tier as estrada and Gonzalez dominated him.

jujigatame wrote: That's kind of a crazy statement to make about Rigondeaux. Donaire was considered a serious P4P guy and was better than anyone Gonzalez has fought by a HUGE margin. Not to mention that if you're counting guys like Vargas and Hirales as quality opponents you may as well count everyone Rigondeaux has faced for the last 4 years.

Cordoba, Casey, Ramos, Kennedy, Marroquin, Donaire, Agbeko and Sod

You'd seriously argue that Casey, Ramos, Kennedy, Sod or Marroquin were on par with Hirales?

jujigatame wrote:Nah man, Yaegashi is legit. Best opponent of Gonzalez's career and a lot better than Niida who was always highly rated but who I never found to be anything special. It's a great fight and I'm bummed it won't get any attention stateside.

I don't think it's particularly controversial to call Takayama inconsistent. He has a few good wins but also a lot of losses. He can be hit-or-miss.

Yes, Rodriguez was fighting at 112 back then but he was a complete nobody at the time and he didn't have any success until he dropped to 105.

That's kind of a crazy statement to make about Rigondeaux. Donaire was considered a serious P4P guy and was better than anyone Gonzalez has fought by a HUGE margin. Not to mention that if you're counting guys like Vargas and Hirales as quality opponents you may as well count everyone Rigondeaux has faced for the last 4 years.

Just because a boxer has several losses doesn't mean he is inconsistent. Look at Takayama's losses. All but the loss to Gonzalez were away (including the bouts in Tokyo, as Takayama is based in Osaka).

Takayama is incredibly consistent. Not a step below Niida either.

To answer the original question, I'd probably have him in or near top 10 now and would definitely have him in after beating Yaegashi.

I think he's borderline now but a convincing win should firmly put him there. He's a very good fighter and I can't think of anyone who is currently a more fluid combination puncher.

I agree that he generally has a better resume than Rigo, though I think the latter has the best single win.

Yeah he's definitely top ten for me. If Estrada win I would make a case for him being top ten.

Cutman Scabbers wrote:
Just because a boxer has several losses doesn't mean he is inconsistent. Look at Takayama's losses. All but the loss to Gonzalez were away (including the bouts in Tokyo, as Takayama is based in Osaka).

Takayama is incredibly consistent. Not a step below Niida either.

Well he lost to Niida so I'd say he was at least a small step below him. I also don't see how saying a fight was "away" makes it disappear. Right before he beat Rodriguez in maybe the biggest win of his career, he lost to a complete nobody in the Phillipines. Now, I know that fight is considered dubious and there was a suspect point deduction, but that is the kind of opponent a top class fighter should be blowing out. I don't see how you can call him consistent when his career has had so many highs and lows.

jujigatame wrote:

Cutman Scabbers wrote:
Just because a boxer has several losses doesn't mean he is inconsistent. Look at Takayama's losses. All but the loss to Gonzalez were away (including the bouts in Tokyo, as Takayama is based in Osaka).

Takayama is incredibly consistent. Not a step below Niida either.

Well he lost to Niida so I'd say he was at least a small step below him. I also don't see how saying a fight was "away" makes it disappear. Right before he beat Rodriguez in maybe the biggest win of his career, he lost to a complete nobody in the Phillipines. Now, I know that fight is considered dubious and there was a suspect point deduction, but that is the kind of opponent a top class fighter should be blowing out. I don't see how you can call him consistent when his career has had so many highs and lows.

Do you consider a Amir Khan a top class fighter?

Boxing Prospect wrote:

jujigatame wrote: That's kind of a crazy statement to make about Rigondeaux. Donaire was considered a serious P4P guy and was better than anyone Gonzalez has fought by a HUGE margin. Not to mention that if you're counting guys like Vargas and Hirales as quality opponents you may as well count everyone Rigondeaux has faced for the last 4 years.

Cordoba, Casey, Ramos, Kennedy, Marroquin, Donaire, Agbeko and Sod

You'd seriously argue that Casey, Ramos, Kennedy, Sod or Marroquin were on par with Hirales?

Aside from maybe Sod which was a joke fight, pretty much. I don't really know why you think Hirales is something special. I saw his one good win against Casimero and he looked completely ordinary.

world ranked wrote:

jujigatame wrote:

Cutman Scabbers wrote:
Just because a boxer has several losses doesn't mean he is inconsistent. Look at Takayama's losses. All but the loss to Gonzalez were away (including the bouts in Tokyo, as Takayama is based in Osaka).

Takayama is incredibly consistent. Not a step below Niida either.

Well he lost to Niida so I'd say he was at least a small step below him. I also don't see how saying a fight was "away" makes it disappear. Right before he beat Rodriguez in maybe the biggest win of his career, he lost to a complete nobody in the Phillipines. Now, I know that fight is considered dubious and there was a suspect point deduction, but that is the kind of opponent a top class fighter should be blowing out. I don't see how you can call him consistent when his career has had so many highs and lows.

Do you consider a Amir Khan a top class fighter?

No, and I certainly wouldn't put him on a P4P list. He's another very inconsistent fighter.

jujigatame wrote:

Cutman Scabbers wrote:
Just because a boxer has several losses doesn't mean he is inconsistent. Look at Takayama's losses. All but the loss to Gonzalez were away (including the bouts in Tokyo, as Takayama is based in Osaka).

Takayama is incredibly consistent. Not a step below Niida either.

Well he lost to Niida so I'd say he was at least a small step below him. I also don't see how saying a fight was "away" makes it disappear. Right before he beat Rodriguez in maybe the biggest win of his career, he lost to a complete nobody in the Phillipines. Now, I know that fight is considered dubious and there was a suspect point deduction, but that is the kind of opponent a top class fighter should be blowing out. I don't see how you can call him consistent when his career has had so many highs and lows.

Out of interest, did you watch Takayama's fights with Den Junlaphan, Niida, Gonzalez, Joyi, Handig, Rodriguez, Ono and Rodriguez Jr? Or are you taking your view of a fighter from the results on boxrec? What do you know about Matteo Handig to decree him as a fighter someone should blow out? (Heck Ganigan Lopez couldn't and he's a puncher at 108) And you do realise Takayama was a kid (23) when he fought Niida, he has improved a hell of a lot since then.

jujigatame wrote:

Boxing Prospect wrote:

jujigatame wrote: That's kind of a crazy statement to make about Rigondeaux. Donaire was considered a serious P4P guy and was better than anyone Gonzalez has fought by a HUGE margin. Not to mention that if you're counting guys like Vargas and Hirales as quality opponents you may as well count everyone Rigondeaux has faced for the last 4 years.

Cordoba, Casey, Ramos, Kennedy, Marroquin, Donaire, Agbeko and Sod

You'd seriously argue that Casey, Ramos, Kennedy, Sod or Marroquin were on par with Hirales?

Aside from maybe Sod which was a joke fight, pretty much. I don't really know why you think Hirales is something special. I saw his one good win against Casimero and he looked completely ordinary.

You'd seriously have Willie Casey above Hirales?

I'm not saying Hirales is special, he's a solid contender type, the sort of fighter that good fighters beat but great fighters rip to pieces.

The answer is yes.

Boxing Prospect wrote: Out of interest, did you watch Takayama's fights with Den Junlaphan, Niida, Gonzalez, Joyi, Handig, Rodriguez, Ono and Rodriguez Jr? Or are you taking your view of a fighter from the results on boxrec? What do you know about Matteo Handig to decree him as a fighter someone should blow out? (Heck Ganigan Lopez couldn't and he's a puncher at 108) And you do realise Takayama was a kid (23) when he fought Niida, he has improved a hell of a lot since then.

I do remember his fights with Kyowa and Niida. Haven't seen the more recent ones, although I read a RBR of the Joyi fight and it sounded like he lost pretty decisively. My opinion of Handig is admittedly from BoxRec. The guy is 13-6 and aside from Lopez and Takayama he has fought abject scrubs. He is absolutely the type of guy that Takayama should be beating in decisive fashion. This is why I call Takayama inconsistent and I don't think it's particularly unreasonable.

Boxing Prospect wrote: You'd seriously have Willie Casey above Hirales?

I'm not saying Hirales is special, he's a solid contender type, the sort of fighter that good fighters beat but great fighters rip to pieces.

Not above, but not that far below, either. If you recall at the time Casey was an undefeated Euro champ. He was certainly nothing special and has now descended to D-list status but at the time he was a solid enough opponent.

jujigatame wrote:

Boxing Prospect wrote: You'd seriously have Willie Casey above Hirales?

I'm not saying Hirales is special, he's a solid contender type, the sort of fighter that good fighters beat but great fighters rip to pieces.

Not above, but not that far below, either. If you recall at the time Casey was an undefeated Euro champ. He was certainly nothing special and has now descended to D-list status but at the time he was a solid enough opponent.

True Casey was the unbeaten champion, who had won the title in his previous bout by stopping Paul Hyland...who had done nothing himself other than win the European title in a bout with a very poor Italian.

Aside from that European title bout Casey had never been in a bout scheduled for more than 8 rounds. He was inexperienced, unproven and boasted little to really make him a comparable opponent to Hirales, or even Vargas for that matter. Both of whom had mixed at world level, had plenty of experience and numerous 12 rounders under their belt.