BoxRec

Last night Marcus Beyer lost his WBC super middleweight title against Italian challenger Cristian Sanavia. From what i have read, the fight was close, a 'could of gone either way' scenario.

Now when you go to germany to fight, there is an assumption that you must win by KO, or dominate so much that the judges have no other option than to award you the decision. When a fight is close, then the judges take the opportunity to keep the home fans and promoter happy, right? Well this wasn't the case last night. Beyer could of been awarded the decision, retained his belts and not too much fuss would of occured, it would of been accepted. Yet it was given to the away fighter.

This is not the only example that is an exception general feeling, DM also lost a close decision to Julio Gonzalez. Once again, either man could of been given the decision, but unusually, Gonzalez was.

Another one....Urkal-Harris. IMO Urkal won by about 3 points, but Harris retained his titles.

Should fighters from the US and Britain and everywhere else still be reluctant to fight there? Do they score fairly.

The dodgyness hasn't gone completely, Svenn Ottke has stillthe trusty officials on his side. Recently, he was lucky to escape defeat against Mads Larsen and even more so against Robin Reid which involved the worst refereeing performance i have ever seen. That contest certainly wasn't conducted fairly.


what do you think? Next time you here someone say 'I aint going to fight him in germany, he can come here bla bla bla...you going to think 'yeah, damn right, he'll get cheated on there' or.... 'what a chicken, convenient excuse'



It's an interesting one, personally i think the situation is becoming a lot better. Infact i'd say that our judging is no better than the Gemans. A fighter should be just as reluctant to come over here than to Germany. Last night we had Bobby Vanzie very unlucky to lose to Graham Earl for the second time on the end of a poor decision.

What about the US? Last nights decision is percieved as incorrect by almost everyone on here. Marquez-Pacquaio, and plenty of other examples

where would you most trust a fight to be handled correctly? Is Germany any worse?

its probably because the house fighters you mentioned who lost were all on the downside of their careers and thus had been milked as much as they could already.

Or not that popular. Apprently for instance, Otkay Urkal was never that popular with Universum or is it Sauerland, i forget which, and neither for that Matter was Dariusz Michaelszewski.

The fact is, Ottke had 5 controversial wins in his career, all of them at home. Oscar has had two go against him, even though he is the biggest earner in boxing.

I haven't seen his fight with Sturm yet, but from what I hear he didn't do enough to win it on almost anyone's card, yet got the decision. That stinks to high heaven, and I don't condone it in any way.

I think Germany, being more insular as a boxing nation, and not really needing the approval or to work with American networks, has been able to get away with appointing 'accomodating' officials for world title fights.

With Oscar, I wonder whether in the back of their minds the judges just didn't want to be the ones to spoil the multi-million dollar party, and so gave rounds to Oscar despite the obvious facts.

A lot of Ottke's fights were close on the scorecards and the German did enough to win and that's all. Glen Johnson, for example, lost by two scores of 115-113 to Ottke (the third was 116-112) who put in a big finish to make sure of the verdict. I believe the scores in his fight with Reid were also close.

The issue wasn't the scoring so much, (though I fail to see quite how Ottke won) but the fact that Reid was simply not allowed to fight. There have been some pretty scandalous decisions in Germany over the years, and there are at least two, maybe three decisions that Ottke got which I felt he didn't deserve, including the first title fight where he won the title from Brewer.

Of course we have had our fair share too, Nelson had that terrible draw, Brodie getting a draw against Chi, and Woods against Johnson, but there seems to be something more flagrant in the way they have done it in the past in Germany, which for me reached it's culmination in the Beyer v Green fight and Ottke v Reid.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Or not that popular. Apprently for instance, Otkay Urkal was never that popular with Universum or is it Sauerland, i forget which, and neither for that Matter was Dariusz Michaelszewski.

In the start of his career Urkal was with Universum, his fight with Tszyu was as an Universum fighter, but now he is a Sauerland fighter.

Another example from saturdays card. I think Cantatore was very lucky to get a draw against May.

Which card was that?

It was on the undercard of Beyer vs Sanavia.

I'd like to chip-in about Ottke. Although Sven was a nightmate to watch of all the fights I've seen of his (mostly on Eurosport) I only thought the decision he got against Mads Larsen was terrible. Larsen seem to win one round after the next and I was shocked he didn't get his hand raised.

THEBUTCH wrote:I'd like to chip-in about Ottke. Although Sven was a nightmate to watch of all the fights I've seen of his (mostly on Eurosport) I only thought the decision he got against Mads Larsen was terrible. Larsen seem to win one round after the next and I was shocked he didn't get his hand raised.

did you see the Reid fight. Even with the deduction and no KD scored, Reid still won! The officials were dreadful all round.

THEBUTCH wrote:I'd like to chip-in about Ottke. Although Sven was a nightmate to watch of all the fights I've seen of his (mostly on Eurosport) I only thought the decision he got against Mads Larsen was terrible. Larsen seem to win one round after the next and I was shocked he didn't get his hand raised.

that´s it. I´m no Ottke-fan. But this is the only doubtable fight in his career(vs Larsen). Reid was boxing like crap and got a lot of warnings from the ref. his awful style didn´t score just made Ottke to piss blood afterwards.

Watch the Tortilla-Kournikova-fight vs. Sturm or Axel Schulz vs. Foreman. The real robberies always happen in the U.S.. The land of the boxing mafias.

bubi lose those german glasses mate there is now way the fight at the weekend was worse than Reid Ottke.
no way in hell

Bubi, sorry to be so rude, but quite simply you're full of shite mate.

If you think that it's normal practice to warn a fighter for simply throwing punches, or to help a fighter off the canvas when he is blatantly knocked down, and then not issue a count, then perhaps you should become a german referee, you're a natural.

Roger Tillerman was on the payroll of the IBF, plain and simple, and the IBF have been collecting sanctioning fees from Sauerland for years, not to mention the fact that IBF official Benedetto Montello was seen having dinner with Sauerland and his fighters before the fight, and accepted an expensive solid gold watch for himself and his wife, and an all expenses paid holiday from Sauerland prior to another bout.

Tillerman had no prior experience of refereeing a world title fight at all, and yet somehow gets selected ahead

He then basically allows Ottke to determine when the fighters break, when Reid should be warned, and even Warns reid for landing a right hook.

You're in fornicating denial mate, I'm no fan of Reid, I've always found him boring, but he had a point deducted for no reason, had a knockdown not credited which was blatantly obvious, and was deterred from fighting from the off. The reason Reid stopped fighting in the second half of the fight, was to prevent getting DQ'd he was loading up with a single shot in the hope of scoring a knockout punch on the advice of his corner.

Maybe you germans like watching two nancy-boys backpedalling around a ring flicking out jabs whilst the crowd roar with excitement whenever the slightest bit of contact, but that doesn't actually mean that hitting someone with a full blooded shot is illegal, I guess you see it so seldom in German fights it seems like it must be outside the rules.

ouch

J, you know that I was never an Ottke or Sauerland fan. But considering Tortilla-Kournikova-Sturm fight it was a clear win, 118-110 or something like that. Tortilla scored shit.

That has nothing to do with Reid, when some brits saw it as a win over Ottke.

The whole boxing world, maybe except some brits, watched an absolute clear win from Sturm.

No matter who is german or whatever.

no they didnt you are making out they did Bbui, was 115-113 on my card thats not that clear mate.
Stop making out it was a huge robbery it wasnt.
It was a bad decision yes, but the robbery of the century certainly not, its certainly doesnt rank alongside reid ottke, larsson ottke, or even the draw that holyfield got in the first lewis fight, so take a minute have a breather buddy and get a little bit of perspective.

c´mon, Tortilla didn´t win 5 rounds. that´s a joke.

look let me tell you a quick story, I sat with five mates watchin Klitchko vs Lewis right, and cos I wanted Lewis to win so bad it took four of them to even convince me that Klitchko had lewis in trouble let alone give him a round, such was my bias.
When I watched it agian I had to concede that through the excitement alcohol and whatever else was floating about at that time of the morning that I was wrong and even then I coudlnt find an exuse to score it any more than 3 rounds a peice when the fight was stopped.
I feel that you hate oscar so much and obviously wanted Sturm to do so well(which is fine gotta shout for your own), that this is a similar thing, Im not criticising you here but it really wasnt a shut out mate. honest, i can only give you my view.........

no alcohol. i watched the fight alone. and again, it was not close. most tortilla-punches went in Sturms hands.....

It was a close fight. I didn't score the fight, but knew it was close enough to go either way, even a draw wasn't out of the question. It's just a case of what you prefer,Sturm's crisp single shots or De La Hoya's sustained body attack and flashier combos. A lot of the rounds were very close and were open to interpritation(spelling?). It's a well known fact that in America aggresion is favoured over boxing skill, and this could have been a major decicing factor.

BubiScholz wrote:no alcohol. i watched the fight alone. and again, it was not close. most tortilla-punches went in Sturms hands.....

just bias then.

It's about time something was done about the 'regionality' of judging, there should be one set of criteria, and everyone should have to adhere to them.

Where were the judges from anyway for that fight?

re and judges were all from nevada

ref and judges were all from nevada