BoxRec

40 years today since that strange magical night in the Congo!

I first saw the fight when I discovered a VHS release in the HMV in York, long long before the internet. It came as a double feature with the Thrilla. What a package! I flung my coins at the assistant and stuffed it inside my coat like a discovered wad of bills. Practically ran home to watch it. When I played the tape I was dumbstruck. It was almost too grand for my young eyes. The majesty of the entrances, the fever of the crowd, the menace of Foreman, Ali's sudden attacks, his cackling in the face of death.

I was sprawled on my back, emotionally spent when we finally segued to Manila and Smokin' Joe was bouncing to the ring.

I imagine many people here saw the fight live, or at least at the time. What are your memories, 40 years on?

I remember watching it. I think we had it live on the TV. Those were the days in the uk when we had had live boxing on terrestrial TV probably once or twice a week. Great commentary from Harry Carpenter.

I've never heard the Harry Carpenter call, but would love to. His call of Ali/Liston is outstanding. The only Rumble call I've ever heard is Bob Sheridan - one of the only fights his bluster seemed a perfect fit.

I was always curious as to why Howard Cosell didn't call it, given how closely he and Ali were intertwined. I know Cosell expected Ali's demise out there in the heart of darkness.

Tuan_Jim wrote:40 years today since that strange magical night in the Congo!

I first saw the fight when I discovered a VHS release in the HMV in York, long long before the internet. It came as a double feature with the Thrilla. What a package! I flung my coins at the assistant and stuffed it inside my coat like a discovered wad of bills. Practically ran home to watch it. When I played the tape I was dumbstruck. It was almost too grand for my young eyes. The majesty of the entrances, the fever of the crowd, the menace of Foreman, Ali's sudden attacks, his cackling in the face of death.

I was sprawled on my back, emotionally spent when we finally segued to Manila and Smokin' Joe was bouncing to the ring.

I imagine many people here saw the fight live, or at least at the time. What are your memories, 40 years on?

I bought the VHS of this fight when it was on general release in the UK in 1988.

The fight was 14 years ago then & that feels like a lifetime ago.

Let's get ready to RUMBLE!

So... Buffer plagiarized that line... huh...

Tuan_Jim wrote:I've never heard the Harry Carpenter call, but would love to. His call of Ali/Liston is outstanding. The only Rumble call I've ever heard is Bob Sheridan - one of the only fights his bluster seemed a perfect fit.

I was always curious as to why Howard Cosell didn't call it, given how closely he and Ali were intertwined. I know Cosell expected Ali's demise out there in the heart of darkness.

here you go mate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkZjyWvQmiY

Amazing how Carpenter is stunned that Ali won the title back at 32 years old! This is now considered young for a heavyweight.

I remember that I was only 6 years old when I first saw the fight on tape delay. In 1990 on NBC Sports TV, they replayed the fight as never seen before in America for the first time. It was one of boxing's most extraordinary and unforgettable nights. One of the most anticipated fights of all time. I think this fight, behind Ali vs Frazier I and Louis vs Schmeling II, got to be in the TOP 3, most anticipated fights, pound per pound, of all time. What a fight. It only lasted 8 rounds, but it was a great fight.

I've watched this fight, possibly more than any other in my life time.

I have met people who have said Ali could have defeated Foreman in any way possible, and diminish the success of the "Rope-A-Dope"... in my view, there is no way Ali could have beaten Foreman, had he tried to dance fifteen rounds, or tried to be a boxer-puncher...

That first round, surprises me every time... there is a moment in the fight where Foreman hits Ali on the neck... and its a miracle that he survived that, let alone continued to stand there and take more punishment... and I personally dont care if people disagree or not, but I will always feel that Foreman wasnt given a rematch for a reason.

HomicideHenry wrote:I've watched this fight, possibly more than any other in my life time.

I have met people who have said Ali could have defeated Foreman in any way possible, and diminish the success of the "Rope-A-Dope"... in my view, there is no way Ali could have beaten Foreman, had he tried to dance fifteen rounds, or tried to be a boxer-puncher...

That first round, surprises me every time... there is a moment in the fight where Foreman hits Ali on the neck... and its a miracle that he survived that, let alone continued to stand there and take more punishment... and I personally dont care if people disagree or not, but I will always feel that Foreman wasnt given a rematch for a reason.

The reason was they were going to soak the public for money, and Foreman's loss to Young deflated the potential. Had Foreman won, they might have danced 3 times. Though I don't think Foreman would have won the second time out either....so the third probably would not have happened.

I reckon one could make the argument, though, that Foreman actually won the Young fight and was robbed.

Never have I ever seen Jimmy Young in his prime years look so vulnerable, or hurt, etc.

I'm not sure what to think about George not getting his chance to rematch Ali.
I don't think it's far fetched to assume that the rematch was being marinated.

But surely, the financial reward of fighting a supposedly washed up Foreman who fell short against Young would have outweighed the profit to be made from fighting the likes of Richard Dunn and Joe Bugner. Granted, Ken Norton and Ernie Shavers were tough fights in their own way, but neither presented the kind of danger that Foreman did - and the way that Ali was able to bluff his way out of trouble against Shavers is a good illustration of this.

Ali supposedly considered Frazier washed up before the thrilla, and the experience would certainly have made him wary of the prospect of a similarly motivated Foreman.

I don't think it belittles Ali's achievement in defeating Foreman to say that fighting in Africa gave him an advantage, he flourished where Foreman floundered, to his credit.

I have no idea who would have won if Foreman had been given his rematch in '76 or '77. But I have no doubt that Foreman would have been a real threat, maybe more so than in Zaire.

HomicideHenry wrote:I reckon one could make the argument, though, that Foreman actually won the Young fight and was robbed.

Never have I ever seen Jimmy Young in his prime years look so vulnerable, or hurt, etc.

I guess one could make the argument that Foreman was robbed...but it would be really, really stupid.

Tuan_Jim wrote:I've never heard the Harry Carpenter call, but would love to. His call of Ali/Liston is outstanding. The only Rumble call I've ever heard is Bob Sheridan - one of the only fights his bluster seemed a perfect fit.

I was always curious as to why Howard Cosell didn't call it, given how closely he and Ali were intertwined. I know Cosell expected Ali's demise out there in the heart of darkness.

I've always wondered if the tape that we usually see is of Sheridan actually calling the fight as it happened, or if he was watching the fight on tape after it had happened. It seemed to me that he already knew what was going to happen.

ESPN does this with their Super Bouts fights sometimes. I once saw one of the Bowe-Holyfield fights with Joe Mesi as announcer. He must have been about 8 when it really happened. :)

Anyway, the Rumble in the Jungle was certainly one of the most important fights in history.

A lot of these questions about the lost rematch could be answered by reaching for the bookshelf and consulting 'By George' and Hauser's 'Ali'. After Zaire Foreman spiralled into depression and was out of currency for a year. It was too important to rush him into a rematch and thus his team attempted to rebuild him sensibly and restore his confidence. Jimmy Young was a spanner in the works, and then the beaten Foreman evaporated in the Puerto Rican heat.

I rewatched the full fight last night. Once again I was astonished by the speed of Ali's hands, and the damage his punches were doing. And the way he wriggled and wrestled, nullifying possibly the physically strongest ever undisputed heavyweight champion, was a work of genius. In the third round Foreman connects with a booming overhand right that Ali shrugs off, only to come back talking and hitting, with incessant accuracy.

Ali in that mood, galvanised by the enormity of the event, was an almost supernatural presence in the ring. I don't think any heavyweight could have prepared for what Foreman met in that ring.

Ambling Alp II wrote:I've always wondered if the tape that we usually see is of Sheridan actually calling the fight as it happened, or if he was watching the fight on tape after it had happened. It seemed to me that he already knew what was going to happen.

ESPN does this with their Super Bouts fights sometimes. I once saw one of the Bowe-Holyfield fights with Joe Mesi as announcer. He must have been about 8 when it really happened. :)

That's horrific! Many years ago, when I was building my collection of classic fights, I would go to great pains to find the original calls and avoid Superbouts. What an absurd endeavour, to have stuffy old men sit in a room, strip away the atmosphere and babble over the electric originals. To what an end? Why? Why damn it, why?

In the case of Bob Sheridan, he really is ringside because he's in dialogue with David Frost, Jim Brown and Smokin' Joe for the duration. Either his bias for Ali coloured his call, or he really could smell doom hanging over Big George in the tropical air.

Broomhall wrote:here you go mate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkZjyWvQmiY

Amazing how Carpenter is stunned that Ali won the title back at 32 years old! This is now considered young for a heavyweight.

That's lovely. I suppose age is relative in boxing eras. If you turn pro in 1960 and go through Liston twice, Cooper twice, Jones, Banks, Chuvalo twice, Patterson twice, Quarry twice, Bonavena, Frazier twice, Ellis, and Norton twice, you're an old 32 by any standard. And now here comes the rampaging Foreman!

The prospects we have today who are 33, 34, 35 are certainly old, at least as athletes. We simply lack the waves of dynamic young talent surging through and flattening those creaking old ruins like the cycles of yore.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:I've always wondered if the tape that we usually see is of Sheridan actually calling the fight as it happened, or if he was watching the fight on tape after it had happened. It seemed to me that he already knew what was going to happen.

ESPN does this with their Super Bouts fights sometimes. I once saw one of the Bowe-Holyfield fights with Joe Mesi as announcer. He must have been about 8 when it really happened. :)

That's horrific! Many years ago, when I was building my collection of classic fights, I would go to great pains to find the original calls and avoid Superbouts. What an absurd endeavour, to have stuffy old men sit in a room, strip away the atmosphere and babble over the electric originals. To what an end? Why? Why damn it, why?

In the case of Bob Sheridan, he really is ringside because he's in dialogue with David Frost, Jim Brown and Smokin' Joe for the duration. Either his bias for Ali coloured his call, or he really could smell doom hanging over Big George in the tropical air.

The only version that I have ever seen only has Sheridan talking; except for Frost's right after the fight is over. Jim Brown and Frazier are not on it. One reason I always suspected this version was done later is because with about 30 seconds left in the last round, Sheridan makes this comment about maybe it's Ali's strategy to tire out Foreman, and then of course Ali knocks him out almost right after.
I will have to check out the Carpenter version on Youtube sometime.

I think the real reason that many old fights have the commentary dubbed in after the fight is so the commentators can seem more knowledgeable. Obviously they know what is going to happen; so they won't suggest some strategy that won't work; and of course they might suggest a strategy that of course does work.
I agree that it's much better to have the original commentary.

What a fight.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:I reckon one could make the argument, though, that Foreman actually won the Young fight and was robbed.

Never have I ever seen Jimmy Young in his prime years look so vulnerable, or hurt, etc.

I guess one could make the argument that Foreman was robbed...but it would be really, really stupid.

How so?

It's really stupid because Young won pretty easily. To think Foreman was robbed is stupid.

Because maybe someone stole Big George's supply of Gatorade there in San Juan before the bout?

Ambling Alp II wrote:The only version that I have ever seen only has Sheridan talking; except for Frost's right after the fight is over. Jim Brown and Frazier are not on it. One reason I always suspected this version was done later is because with about 30 seconds left in the last round, Sheridan makes this comment about maybe it's Ali's strategy to tire out Foreman, and then of course Ali knocks him out almost right after.

Yep, the full length version features Sheridan speaking personally with Frost, Frazier et al, mostly in the long pre-fight.

I just saw the fight again for the 1000th time, I guess. Still, does not neglect the fact that it was a marvellous contest of two all time great heavyweights fighting for the biggest price in sports, the heavyweight world championship. Both guys could take some shots. In round 5, it looked like the great Muhammad Ali was to be done, but he came back with a surge in the last 30 seconds, I think he might stole that round. How you scored that fight, gentlemen?