BoxRec

This thread basically is WHEN do you think a particular fighter was at the "end of the line", as far as their prime is concerned. It's easy to see when a man is shot and no good anymore--- but quite different to determine, when the cutting off point is in their careers. The recent "Foreman/Frazier" thread, asking did Foreman fight Joe in his prime, caused alot of debate, so its inspired this thread.

I suppose this is just an open platform and forum to put your own ideas out there... talk about any fighter you want.

Such a difficult issue. For many fighters you can see changes throughout a career. Some fighters get less mobile, rely more on power etc-boxers are always either developing or regressing, but they are never the same from fight to fight, they cannot be as the opponent is generally different in each fight. This is why it is annoying when someone loses eg Frazier V Foreman just goes to the "he must have been on the slide" argument


Some fighters will also often meet someone who just has that indian sign over them and it wouldnt matter when they met, and this guy will always beat them-again Frazier/Foreman an example of this imo.

Sometimes also you will think a guy is washed up, then a couple of wins later are fighting for a title-think Roberto Duran V Kirklaind Laing for example.

It isnt a science that is for sure

Who had the most end of the line fights? I wrote off Evander as shot so many times only to be shocked by his performances.

Who else has came back from the brink so many times?


Edit: Ali obviously lol

Hopkins has got to be on of them been in plenty of end of the line fights if had of lost?

James Toney is another one...

I remember Benn suddenly and unexpectedly having very little to offer against Malinga in 1996 and losing his title. Almost a delayed effect after the unbelievable brutality of the G-Man fight....despite having racked up two further defences.

He was not 'shot' but there was suddenly very little left in the tank in terms of that physical and mental intensity Benn had always previously delivered....Malinga was decent, but it was very much a right time-right place scenario for him in Newcastle that night. You kinda knew that this was the end of the line for Nigel....he could still fight, just not at the level he wanted.

I wish Nigel had finished after Malinga but he fought Collins two times and there was not much there other than physical bravery and immense fighting pride. It had gone.

Strangely, I also think that Lennox Lewis saw the end of line (for himself) in that infamous fight with Vitali. He won it and it was the right decision to stop it because Vitali was cut to ribbons....but Lennox also knew that it had been close and that perhaps something was missing and that Vitali would be even more of a threat in a rematch. Lewis was always smart and bowed out.

Bodyshot3 wrote:I remember Benn suddenly and unexpectedly having very little to offer against Malinga in 1996 and losing his title. Almost a delayed effect after the unbelievable brutality of the G-Man fight....despite having racked up two further defences.

He was not 'shot' but there was suddenly very little left in the tank in terms of that physical and mental intensity Benn had always previously delivered....Malinga was decent, but it was very much a right time-right place scenario for him in Newcastle that night. You kinda knew that this was the end of the line for Nigel....he could still fight, just not at the level he wanted.

I wish Nigel had finished after Malinga but he fought Collins two times and there was not much there other than physical bravery and immense fighting pride. It had gone.

Strangely, I also think that Lennox Lewis saw the end of line (for himself) in that infamous fight with Vitali. He won it and it was the right decision to stop it because Vitali was cut to ribbons....but Lennox also knew that it had been close and that perhaps something was missing and that Vitali would be even more of a threat in a rematch. Lewis was always smart and bowed out.

The Lewis/Klitschko fight is one of those fights I'll always ask, "What if it went one more round?"

Same, to a degree, with Manila. "What if, one more round?"

But I do believe you're right... dont care what Lewis claims or says... he retired, cus he knew it would of been worse the next go around.

@HomicideHenry....agreed.

Lewis got one almighty shock that night and although he squared-up to everyone in the immediate aftermath who contested that it was anyything other than a conclusive victory.....he knew that his powers were on the wane and that the pressure for a second fight, with a serious guy like Vitali coming back even and stronger and harder, was something to be avoided.

Lennox was never yellow (as that fight conclusively proved)....but rather a smart man who always viewed boxing as a business (that he was going to run for himself) and had also plans for his professional and social life beyond the ring. It was pretty much the perfect exit strategy ....leaving the sport with a win over another dominant heavyweight champion.

Another Brit fighter who saw the end of line was McGuigan....his excellent, brutally honest book hints at the fact that his comeback at super-featherweight (post the Cruz meltdown) was misguided. The magic had somehow gone; although he could still perform at a certain level. Barry just did not have the same burning desire and dedication to make him an elite, world-beater anymore.

Bodyshot3 wrote:@HomicideHenry....agreed.

Lewis got one almighty shock that night and although he squared-up to everyone in the immediate aftermath who contested that it was anyything other than a conclusive victory.....he knew that his powers were on the wane and that the pressure for a second fight, with a serious guy like Vitali coming back even and stronger and harder, was something to be avoided.

Lennox was never yellow (as that fight conclusively proved)....but rather a smart man who always viewed boxing as a business (that he was going to run for himself) and had also plans for his professional and social life beyond the ring. It was pretty much the perfect exit strategy ....leaving the sport with a win over another dominant heavyweight champion.

Another Brit fighter who saw the end of line was McGuigan....his excellent, brutally honest book hints at the fact that his comeback at super-featherweight (post the Cruz meltdown) was misguided. The magic had somehow gone; although he could still perform at a certain level. Barry just did not have the same burning desire and dedication to make him an elite, world-beater anymore.

Wayne McCullough was another one...

As for Lewis, I think at that time in his career... he was all about the money. Mind you, people often forget, that how it was supposed to be was Vitali, then a rematch with Tyson, then Vladimir Klitschko, then retirement... there was also talk of a Jones fight... mind you, Lewis gave up the IBF title for the sole purpose of a WBA/IBF unification, where everyone hoped Jones would win. Was all about the money at that time. Lewis already had the "legacy" fight with Tyson, where he demolished him.

As bad as the division is today--- we shouldnt really look back with nostalgic feelings and say "I miss the Lewis era" because it was THAT bad... that the only fights we had to look forward to was either Lewis vs Tyson (again) or Lewis vs a dwarfish light heavyweight champion... or *has nightmares* Lewis vs Ruiz... there was really nothing there, and hadnt been in the division for quite some time... I'll argue there's at least more choices and options, today, than there was then.

Yes...Wayne another very good example of an exciting Brit crowd-pleaser, probably even braver and more committed than Benn and McGuigan if that is humanely possible, and capable of truly beating the very best on the right night. But also a guy who ultimately had a limited shelf-life due to the massive sacrifices that involved. Absolutely refused to budge against Hamed despite being the smaller man with far less firepower....that fight has always made me respect Wayne big time.

Bringing things up to date; it will be interesting to see how Frampton goes. McGuigan has tellingly hinted that he sees Carl as a superior fighter to himself, precisely because Carl wins fight without taking the collateral damage that burns up a career so quickly. I think Barry is a good judge...Frampton has got to the top without having drained half the battery.

it is difficult to know when a fighter should absolutely "hang them up" although I do think sugar ray robinson
should have hung them up after the last fullmer fight. in 1961, he was 40-41 but, he went on and fought and won quite a few. it was obvious after the giardello fight in 1963 he was a shell. but, he still would not quit.

I think jerry quarry should have gave it up after the Norton bout also. and duane bobick after Norton also.
it seems as though the majority of fighters really fight too long. also I should include Floyd Patterson before he was reduced to fighting charley green. archie moore fought too long.


I have four who I think gave it up at the right time. tunney, Marciano, lahoya, palomino. and there are many. many more. jusy my opinion.