BoxRec

Because Ali won it? I'm the biggest Ali fan of all time but I'll admit, I smell bias. If Ali won the FOTC. I guarantee you, it would be considered the greatest fight of all time.
It was the most anticipated fight ever. On the evening of the match, Madison Square Garden had a circus-like atmosphere, with scores of policemen to control the crowd, outrageously dressed fans, and countless celebrities, from Norman Mailer and Woody Allen to Frank Sinatra, who, after being unable to procure a ringside seat, took photographs for Life magazine instead. Artist LeRoy Neiman painted Ali and Frazier as they fought. Burt Lancaster served as a color commentator for the closed-circuit broadcast. Though Lancaster had never performed as a sports commentator before, he was hired by the fight's promoter, Jerry Perenchio, who was also a friend. The other commentators were play-by-play announcer Don Dunphy and boxing champion Archie Moore.[citation needed]

The fight itself exceeded even its promotional hype and went the full 15-round championship distance.
In the end when it looked like the fight would end with no climax. Frazier throws arguably the greatest left hook of all time. Ali goes down like he has been shot. Somehow Ali got up. Even the Ali haters have to admit that was a great feat itself. Frazier payed a very high price for winning. I believe that Frazier would defeat Foreman. that was his greatest effort, that was never to be replicated by Joe. Any post FOTC Frazier would struggle.
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/art ... -bout-ever
http://www.boxing.com/the_myth_of_the_t ... nilla.html

Frazier -v- Ali 1 & Ali -v- Frazier 3; both great fights with tremendous effort from both men.

The first was greater for me, simply because both men with closer to their primes, but the third was still a classic & brutal contest in its own right that stands up to any fight in history.

Syntax Error wrote:Frazier -v- Ali 1 & Ali -v- Frazier 3; both great fights with tremendous effort from both men.

The first was greater for me, simply because both men with closer to their primes, but the third was still a classic & brutal contest in its own right that stands up to any fight in history.

Exactly my thought.

I think it may be seen as many (not me) as the fight of all time not just because of the action but because of the circumstances around the fight, the politics, the build up, the international interest and because of the the fact that it featured possibly the most charismatic professional sportsman of all time which meant the interest went far beyond the fervent boxing fan.

"Because Ali won it?"



BINGO!

We have a winner!!



The Manila fight was a brutal classic, but it doesn't compare to the FOTC, for the reasons elaborated in the topic starter, plus both men were unbeaten and clearly closer to their best. Both combatants knew going in that the FOTC was the big moment in their careers.

If Ali had prevailed in the Big One, ESPN would probably devote an entire channel showing the fight 24/7/365.

a better question would be(and addressed),
why was their second fight (seamenly)such a stinker to boxing fans?

Caractacus wrote:a better question would be(and addressed),
why was their second fight (seamenly)such a stinker to boxing fans?

Ali was terrified of losing to Smokin' Joe again & Frazier just didn't have it anymore.

Ali clutched onto Frazier like he wanted to date him & the referee let him get away with away.

Apart from the second round when Ali momentarily wobbled Frazier, there is little memorable about that contest.

I believe its considered that, because as Ali would later say "It was the closest thing to death," that he had ever experienced. Here were two men who absoloutely hated eachother, and knew deep down, that it took the other to bring out the best in themselves. There's always the question of "one more round"... both men damn near killed eachother, and fought at a blistering pace. It wasn't a boxing match. It became something more, and everyone could see it.

The fact that Ali returned in 1980, and so did Frazier, speaks volumes. Frazier would of followed Ali to the ends of the earth and back, for another fight. Ali, of course, showed all the signs of damage and of course lost brutally to Holmes, and pathetically lose to Berbick. Frazier, on the other hand, showed signs of something left--- the draw against Floyd Cummings. Don't believe the pundits who say Frazier was given a "gift" on that fight, its not true.

It goes without saying, until Smokin' Joe's death, that had he and Ali met on a street somewhere that they would of fought right there and then--- the animosity and the hurt and the pain was there forever. Manila represents, in the minds of millions, going beyond what is humanly possible. Sure, there have been bloodier fights, and there have been fights where people have died or never were the same again--- but Manila is a fight where it was ALMOST death, and ALMOST permanent damage, etc.

yancey wrote:"Because Ali won it?"



BINGO!

We have a winner!!



The Manila fight was a brutal classic, but it doesn't compare to the FOTC, for the reasons elaborated in the topic starter, plus both men were unbeaten and clearly closer to their best. Both combatants knew going in that the FOTC was the big moment in their careers.

If Ali had prevailed in the Big One, ESPN would probably devote an entire channel showing the fight 24/7/365.

Yancey, stop lickin' old wounds. It was the highlight of Joe's career. Ali was to have his on another day and another time.

HomicideHenry wrote:I believe its considered that, because as Ali would later say "It was the closest thing to death," that he had ever experienced. Here were two men who absoloutely hated eachother, and knew deep down, that it took the other to bring out the best in themselves. There's always the question of "one more round"... both men damn near killed eachother, and fought at a blistering pace. It wasn't a boxing match. It became something more, and everyone could see it.

The fact that Ali returned in 1980, and so did Frazier, speaks volumes. Frazier would of followed Ali to the ends of the earth and back, for another fight. Ali, of course, showed all the signs of damage and of course lost brutally to Holmes, and pathetically lose to Berbick. Frazier, on the other hand, showed signs of something left--- the draw against Floyd Cummings. Don't believe the pundits who say Frazier was given a "gift" on that fight, its not true.

It goes without saying, until Smokin' Joe's death, that had he and Ali met on a street somewhere that they would of fought right there and then--- the animosity and the hurt and the pain was there forever. Manila represents, in the minds of millions, going beyond what is humanly possible. Sure, there have been bloodier fights, and there have been fights where people have died or never were the same again--- but Manila is a fight where it was ALMOST death, and ALMOST permanent damage, etc.

The did not "hate" each other.

However with that said, they had no greater wish than to "prevail" or "beat" one another.

They each got their wish.

Joe did it best,
Ali did it most.

BoxBuzz wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:I believe its considered that, because as Ali would later say "It was the closest thing to death," that he had ever experienced. Here were two men who absoloutely hated eachother, and knew deep down, that it took the other to bring out the best in themselves. There's always the question of "one more round"... both men damn near killed eachother, and fought at a blistering pace. It wasn't a boxing match. It became something more, and everyone could see it.

The fact that Ali returned in 1980, and so did Frazier, speaks volumes. Frazier would of followed Ali to the ends of the earth and back, for another fight. Ali, of course, showed all the signs of damage and of course lost brutally to Holmes, and pathetically lose to Berbick. Frazier, on the other hand, showed signs of something left--- the draw against Floyd Cummings. Don't believe the pundits who say Frazier was given a "gift" on that fight, its not true.

It goes without saying, until Smokin' Joe's death, that had he and Ali met on a street somewhere that they would of fought right there and then--- the animosity and the hurt and the pain was there forever. Manila represents, in the minds of millions, going beyond what is humanly possible. Sure, there have been bloodier fights, and there have been fights where people have died or never were the same again--- but Manila is a fight where it was ALMOST death, and ALMOST permanent damage, etc.

The did not "hate" each other.

However with that said, they had no greater wish than to "prevail" or "beat" one another.

They each got their wish.

Joe did it best,
Ali did it most.

Frazier most certainly hated Ali... maybe Ali didn't feel that way, but Frazier sure did.

Though I will say, I interviewed Marvis not long after Joe died, and he was happy to say that Ali and Frazier did make ammends while Joe was dying and all was forgiven.

And I agree... Frazier did do it best...

I used this analogy once before ; Take John Travolta : Was he a better dancer in Saturday Night Fever when he was young, slim , sharp? Or Pulp Fiction in the diner scene ;when he was overweight, middle aged but still had 'it'? That's how I view Frazier vs Ali 1 and Ali vs Frazier 3. Strange but you got to admit a great analogy.

BoxBuzz wrote:

yancey wrote:"Because Ali won it?"



BINGO!

We have a winner!!



The Manila fight was a brutal classic, but it doesn't compare to the FOTC, for the reasons elaborated in the topic starter, plus both men were unbeaten and clearly closer to their best. Both combatants knew going in that the FOTC was the big moment in their careers.

If Ali had prevailed in the Big One, ESPN would probably devote an entire channel showing the fight 24/7/365.

Yancey, stop lickin' old wounds. It was the highlight of Joe's career. Ali was to have his on another day and another time.

I'm not licking old wounds.

I'm just the fly in the ointment TELLING THE TRUTH,

which evidently you don't like hearing.

The reason Manila has attained mythical status is because that was the one the Media Darling won.

Broomhall wrote:I think it may be seen as many (not me) as the fight of all time not just because of the action but because of the circumstances around the fight, the politics, the build up, the international interest and because of the the fact that it featured possibly the most charismatic professional sportsman of all time which meant the interest went far beyond the fervent boxing fan.

Probably the greatest boxing event of all time, but there's been plenty of better fights, the fact that's it Ali sometimes blurs things.

And I will continue to TELL THE TRUTH, until I go the way of others who had the same want .

Joe Frazier hands down was a better man than Muhammad Ali.

yancey wrote:And I will continue to TELL THE TRUTH, until I go the way of others who had the same want .

Joe Frazier hands down was a better man than Muhammad Ali.

It's hard to say that... it really is...

It's difficult to gauge people's prime or peak years, but I think it can be said Frazier was closer to his prime in that 1974 rematch than Ali was--- and Ali was in better shape, and seemed more like his old self (60s). Though I will admit, the tide seemed to be turning and I can't help but wonder, had it been fifteen rounds, how would the scorecards of read?

But because Frazier couldn't seem to close the gap for the longest time in that fight cus Ali was using alot of lateral movement, and firing that jab--- it made me think, "Great as Frazier was, there's no way he could of reached the prime Ali inside the ring."

HomicideHenry wrote:

yancey wrote:And I will continue to TELL THE TRUTH, until I go the way of others who had the same want .

Joe Frazier hands down was a better man than Muhammad Ali.

It's hard to say that... it really is...

It's difficult to gauge people's prime or peak years, but I think it can be said Frazier was closer to his prime in that 1974 rematch than Ali was--- and Ali was in better shape, and seemed more like his old self (60s). Though I will admit, the tide seemed to be turning and I can't help but wonder, had it been fifteen rounds, how would the scorecards of read?

But because Frazier couldn't seem to close the gap for the longest time in that fight cus Ali was using alot of lateral movement, and firing that jab--- it made me think, "Great as Frazier was, there's no way he could of reached the prime Ali inside the ring."

Firing that jab and

HOLDING LIKE HELL.

That fight was tainted because of the unbelievable amount of illegal holding moves Ali got away with that night.

The only way the clearly past prime Frazier wins the second fight is via knockout.

Do you think the boxing establishment wanted Ali's career derailed with a second Frazier loss?

I'll give you a hint..............

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

I think post his enforced lay off years Ali was possibly one of the dirtiest heavyweight fighters-I dont mean gouging or biting ala Tony Galento, but holding, leaning on, holding the neck, pulling his opponent down etc-he got away with an awful lot-I think he didnt like training as he got older and developed ways to slow fights down to a pace he was comfortable with.

I think again it brings into question this thing about "prime" or "peak" and because so many fighters didnt train out of camp or keep in any condition in the old days (and maybe some in the modern era) I think many were actually physically at their peaks but just hated training. When Ali beat Foreman he was only 32 and 29 when he first lost to Frazier.

yancey wrote:

Firing that jab and

HOLDING LIKE HELL.

That fight was tainted because of the unbelievable amount of illegal holding moves Ali got away with that night.

The only way the clearly past prime Frazier wins the second fight is via knockout.

Do you think the boxing establishment wanted Ali's career derailed with a second Frazier loss?

I'll give you a hint..............

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

In the first fight it was quite evident that Ali had to hold and hold, etc.

What he was most guilty of in the second fight was holding the back of Frazier's head. But for most part he was more on his feet, using lateral movement, etc. Wasnt until the later rounds did he resort to more head holding and clinching.

But, I dont believe the prime Ali would of been guilty of doing such things. Besides, by your logic, Ali was "protected" and allowed to do illegal things in the hopes he would not only beat Frazier--- but Foreman also. And last I checked Ali was a huge underdog going into Zaire. So the argument that he was allowed to do illegal things to Frazier, is really unfounded, as the rematch was to determine WHO would fight Foreman.