BoxRec

A lot of boxing fans and pundits are brain washed that being a top class amateur means top class pro, I think it's a very overrated theory. You look at frankie gavin ranked number one in the world yet couldn't beat a 40 year old Bundu who keith Thurman then whitewashes , also thomas stalker was number 3 in the world and has been a flop, courtney fry was European silva and comenwealth gold medalist he done nothing as a pro, tony Thompson took boxing up at 27 had 12 amateurs fights he beat brilliant amateurs david price and solis, people are buying to much into this top class amateur boxer means brilliant pro. Don't be brainwashed it means nothing

Who is brainwashed with it?

Nobody - well all know...

Obviously there are cases of people without remarkable amateur careers being successful pros and cases in which very successful amateurs accomplish far less professionally, but I think a sizable majority of top pros were good amateurs with substantial experience in that code, so I wouldn't be so quick to say a big amateur pedigree means nothing. It's also worth noting that Bundu was an Olympian and won several national titles over many years, while Thurman won several national titles and competed internationally.

Going by BoxRec's top 25 P4P and not putting fighters in more than one category:

Olympic gold x2 (Wlad/Povetkin)
Olympic silver x2 (GGG/Khan)
Olympic bronze x1 (Floyd)
World gold (Lara)
World bronze (Froch, who only assumed the top spot at 168 when Olympic gold medalist Ward was dropped due to inactivity)
Olympian (Cotto)
National titles and international experience (Porter, Maidana, Matthyse, Kovalev, D. Garcia, Thurman, Walters, and Crawford--to my knowledge most of these fighters had over 100 amateur bouts)

There are loads of other fighters with extensive amateur careers in virtually every division's top ten as well; for example, every major titlist at 160 was an Olympian and two of them have mandatory challengers that were Olympians. If you go through the bottom of each division I imagine that the fighters will tend to have significantly less extensive and successful amateur stints.

You don't have to scratch too far beneath the surface to realise that not all amateur stars will make great pros.
A few top level amateurs benefit from accumulating a lot of experience in the unpaid ranks and don't really come to the boil until relatively late in age. These rarely make the big impact in the pro game when they turn over. Gavin and recently Campbell, are two examples over here ( obviously Luke is just starting out but I don't think he will reach elite level in the pro game )
The amateurs who are stars from the off, no matter what age, are a much safer bet.

Pricey benefitted from an extensive amateur career too.

Since the head guards went it's obvious the transition from amateur star to pro star will be easier though, which is a good thing.

Michael bennt wrote:A lot of boxing fans and pundits are brain washed that being a top class amateur means top class pro, I think it's a very overrated theory. You look at frankie gavin ranked number one in the world yet couldn't beat a 40 year old Bundu who keith Thurman then whitewashes , also thomas stalker was number 3 in the world and has been a flop, courtney fry was European silva and comenwealth gold medalist he done nothing as a pro, tony Thompson took boxing up at 27 had 12 amateurs fights he beat brilliant amateurs david price and solis, people are buying to much into this top class amateur boxer means brilliant pro. Don't be brainwashed it means nothing

I dont think you will find too many boxing pundits/fans who are brainwashed into this. I think most of us know this. The best pros are GENERALLY good or top class amateurs. There are lots of reasons for this, one of the main ones being they get matched carefully and usually have a manager/promotor looking out for them.

Not all good amateurs go onto become top pros, (obvious really and the same in many sports where youthful talent doesnt always translate to senior success) but the majority of good pro's have been top or at least very good amateurs.

Who are all these simpleton, easily brainwashed boxing fans? I don't know any.

It depends which era of amateur boxing you are talking about IMO. We are just coming out of a very safety conscious, 'fencing' type of era that focussed primarily on head shots and work rate, that didn't compliment the pro sport as much.

That may well change over the next few years. If you look at the best ten boxers in the world today, I bet at least 7 have an extensive Am background.

Thanks for creating this thread - I've finally seen the light, my days of living under the delusion that amateur success guarantees pro success are over

Boxerbeetle wrote:Thanks for creating this thread - I've finally seen the light, my days of living under the delusion that amateur success guarantees pro success are over

No real boxing fan ever believed that anyway,when i say real i mean hardcore,fans who wouldn't be dragged into the hype that surrounds top amateurs.There is also a list as long as your arm of top amateurs who went on to be a top class pros,so saying what your saying on a serious boxing forum makes no sense.

Michael bennt wrote:A lot of boxing fans and pundits are brain washed that being a top class amateur means top class pro, I think it's a very overrated theory. You look at frankie gavin ranked number one in the world yet couldn't beat a 40 year old Bundu who keith Thurman then whitewashes...

Bundu was an Olympian and World Championship medalist, Thurman was a six time national champion who slated up 101 amateur wins i.e. big amateur pedigrees all round. I'm not saying you're wrong but your opening gambit is crap. Having a big amateur pedigree is better than not having one but it doesn't guarantee success beyond a certain level.

Generally speaking top class amateurs become top class professionals, mainly because the best amateurs, are the guys who start boxing at 4-6 years old, and accumulate thousands of hours of practice.

HOWEVER.

There is a caveat, you can be a top class amateur, without being all that tough, Audley is our perfect example.

However, still, most top class amateurs, go on to at least national, if not world honours.

stevieb_8006 wrote:Who are all these simpleton, easily brainwashed boxing fans? I don't know any.

It depends which era of amateur boxing you are talking about IMO. We are just coming out of a very safety conscious, 'fencing' type of era that focussed primarily on head shots and work rate, that didn't compliment the pro sport as much.

That may well change over the next few years. If you look at the best ten boxers in the world today, I bet at least 7 have an extensive Am background.

amateur boxing seems to be oscillating back the other way now, towards round scoring, and actual fighting.

The whole point scoring system, was horribly flawed, and discouraged combinations.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
There is a caveat, you can be a top class amateur, without being all that tough, Audley is our perfect example.

I would say Audley is pretty tough, his last round win over Sprott proving he is tougher than the average bear.

Fat Git wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
There is a caveat, you can be a top class amateur, without being all that tough, Audley is our perfect example.

I would say Audley is pretty tough, his last round win over Sprott proving he is tougher than the average bear.

generous.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Fat Git wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
There is a caveat, you can be a top class amateur, without being all that tough, Audley is our perfect example.

I would say Audley is pretty tough, his last round win over Sprott proving he is tougher than the average bear.

generous.

Not really, fighting with a dislocated shoulder - especially knocking a capable fighter out with one. Danny Williams gets
his due regarding this - so should Auds.

Lack of true self belief and confidence in his abilities? Sure, I will go along with those accusations. But he is a tough bloke though
one does not become a professional boxing champion if one wasn't.

Amateur boxing is now going through its most transitional period since 1984 LA. The reffing and judging have done a massive about turn, refs tappin fighters tellin them to " sort it out" when in fighting instead of breaking em, cuts as bad as anything I've seen in pros. To be fair though the good trainers will shine through whereas the chancers who have saturated our sport in the last twenty years will be exposed. Lads turning pro will be better equipped for the transition. Reguarding top ams making/not making good pros, the fact is you are taught to box by your amateur coach, it is he who helps you develop your own style. Of course there are cases of too much too young but generally if you have 100 bouts as a club lad or international the situations you are put in in those bouts will serve you well as a young pro. We can all point to Errol Christie, Collins brothers, Gilbody, Leo Randolph etc etc but they are the exception IMO.

manno wrote:Amateur boxing is now going through its most transitional period since 1984 LA. The reffing and judging have done a massive about turn, refs tappin fighters tellin them to " sort it out" when in fighting instead of breaking em, cuts as bad as anything I've seen in pros. To be fair though the good trainers will shine through whereas the chancers who have saturated our sport in the last twenty years will be exposed. Lads turning pro will be better equipped for the transition. Reguarding top ams making/not making good pros, the fact is you are taught to box by your amateur coach, it is he who helps you develop your own style. Of course there are cases of too much too young but generally if you have 100 bouts as a club lad or international the situations you are put in in those bouts will serve you well as a young pro. We can all point to Errol Christie, Collins brothers, Gilbody, Leo Randolph etc etc but they are the exception IMO.

I wouldnt say the above are the exception. The vast majority, probably 99% of amateur "stars" that turn over will not win world or even national/regional titles. But the percentages get even smaller when you are talking about having no or little am experience.

Bernard Hopkins & Julio Cesar Chavez Jr had no amateue experience at all look at what they have achieved in the sport

Broomhall wrote:

manno wrote:Amateur boxing is now going through its most transitional period since 1984 LA. The reffing and judging have done a massive about turn, refs tappin fighters tellin them to " sort it out" when in fighting instead of breaking em, cuts as bad as anything I've seen in pros. To be fair though the good trainers will shine through whereas the chancers who have saturated our sport in the last twenty years will be exposed. Lads turning pro will be better equipped for the transition. Reguarding top ams making/not making good pros, the fact is you are taught to box by your amateur coach, it is he who helps you develop your own style. Of course there are cases of too much too young but generally if you have 100 bouts as a club lad or international the situations you are put in in those bouts will serve you well as a young pro. We can all point to Errol Christie, Collins brothers, Gilbody, Leo Randolph etc etc but they are the exception IMO.

I wouldnt say the above are the exception. The vast majority, probably 99% of amateur "stars" that turn over will not win world or even national/regional titles. But the percentages get even smaller when you are talking about having no or little am experience.

yeh , I suppose if you are talking about world titles as potential full filled I probably worded it wrong but the point I was trying to make is you would more often than not be a more rounded and better schooled fighter with the extensive amateur career.

Fat Git wrote: Not really, fighting with a dislocated shoulder - especially knocking a capable fighter out with one. Danny Williams gets
his due regarding this - so should Auds.

Lack of true self belief and confidence in his abilities? Sure, I will go along with those accusations. But he is a tough bloke though
one does not become a professional boxing champion if one wasn't.

Audley never had a dislocated shoulder.

stujones wrote:

Fat Git wrote: Not really, fighting with a dislocated shoulder - especially knocking a capable fighter out with one. Danny Williams gets
his due regarding this - so should Auds.

Lack of true self belief and confidence in his abilities? Sure, I will go along with those accusations. But he is a tough bloke though
one does not become a professional boxing champion if one wasn't.

Audley never had a dislocated shoulder.

Against Sprotty? Was it not? There was something up with him that required 'testicular fortitude' to get him through the fight and the win.

Fat Git wrote:

stujones wrote:

Fat Git wrote: Not really, fighting with a dislocated shoulder - especially knocking a capable fighter out with one. Danny Williams gets
his due regarding this - so should Auds.

Lack of true self belief and confidence in his abilities? Sure, I will go along with those accusations. But he is a tough bloke though
one does not become a professional boxing champion if one wasn't.

Audley never had a dislocated shoulder.

Against Sprotty? Was it not? There was something up with him that required 'testicular fortitude' to get him through the fight and the win.

It was injured but not sure it popped out. Think it was ligament damage.

He apparently (sorry to sound a little sceptical about it, not the first boxers visit to the hospital in which some doubt about it's validity has been made**) had surgery for a torn pec (how badly torn was never disclosed) 2 weeks after the Sprott fight.

** Mike Tyson's surgery for his knee post Danny Williams, David Haye's surgery recently, Andre Dirrell's neurological issues during the super 6's.

leonsdaddy1 wrote:Bernard Hopkins & Julio Cesar Chavez Jr had no amateue experience at all look at what they have achieved in the sport

BHop boxed as an amateur in prison in Pennsylvania. The Pennsylvania prison system had a very good boxing program where prisons fought other prisons and they had a state prison championship which Bhop was one. I used to ref in the PA prisons and they had some great fights and there were guys who had life sentences that were every bit as good as Bhop but life means life in Pennsylvania and they ain't never getting out. Sad thing is that the boxing program was stopped in the PA prison system.