BoxRec

back in the day when THE fight didn't materialise
drug testing became a big topic for months here
on the board. the whole lance armstrong thing
as well fuelled a lot of discussions on boxing being
not so different from cycling.

but things have calmed down since then. where do
we stand? out of the top ten in each division how
many do you think juice? are the drug testings any
good these days?

I think sports that are based upon weight classes still have issues with diuretics.

Skill usually prevails so doesn't matter too much in boxing?

Rexob wrote:Skill usually prevails so doesn't matter too much in boxing?

i don't think it is that simple.

zojo, wrote:I think sports that are based upon weight classes still have issues with diuretics.

definitely one major thing, but i guess there
is much more than that in prep ...

man wrote:

Rexob wrote:Skill usually prevails so doesn't matter too much in boxing?

i don't think it is that simple.

It is that simple. PEDs don't give you superpowers. Lamont Peterson never owned a cape. That Qasim kid who's lost 95% of whatever of his fights someone made a thread about can't take PED's & be a world champion.

PEDs increase your ability to some marginal degree. Some people probably get more of an increase than others therefore skill usually prevails. Barry Bonds & Mark McGuire weren't hitting 18 HR's a year at their peak & suddenly went to 70+ HR's. They were pretty bad cats before that.

ReggieDiggs wrote:

man wrote:

Rexob wrote:Skill usually prevails so doesn't matter too much in boxing?

i don't think it is that simple.

It is that simple. PEDs don't give you superpowers. Lamont Peterson never owned a cape. That Qasim kid who's lost 95% of whatever of his fights someone made a thread about can't take PED's & be a world champion.

PEDs increase your ability to some marginal degree. Some people probably get more of an increase than others therefore skill usually prevails. Barry Bonds & Mark McGuire weren't hitting 18 HR's a year at their peak & suddenly went to 70+ HR's. They were pretty bad cats before that.

i hear you. wished i could believe the same ...

ReggieDiggs wrote:

man wrote:

Rexob wrote:Skill usually prevails so doesn't matter too much in boxing?

i don't think it is that simple.

It is that simple. PEDs don't give you superpowers. Lamont Peterson never owned a cape. That Qasim kid who's lost 95% of whatever of his fights someone made a thread about can't take PED's & be a world champion.

PEDs increase your ability to some marginal degree. Some people probably get more of an increase than others therefore skill usually prevails. Barry Bonds & Mark McGuire weren't hitting 18 HR's a year at their peak & suddenly went to 70+ HR's. They were pretty bad cats before that.

That's true, but when 2 guys have similar skills & 1 guy wins because he's marginally enhanced his skills with PEDs while the other guy has fought clean, that's a problem imo.

Boxerbeetle wrote:That's true, but when 2 guys have similar skills & 1 guy wins because he's marginally enhanced his skills with PEDs while the other guy has fought clean, that's a problem imo.

I think thats too simple of a way to look at it. I don't think the difference between very many guys is that marginal. I mean maybe if we are talking about Hagler & Leonard were a few seconds better used by Hagler or not as well used by Leonard might have changed the outcome. Most of the fights you're gonna encounter aren't that thin. Personally I believe the biggest increase PEDs might be giving a guy is confidence, but thats a far less tangible thing & far less interesting a topic than "superpowers".

As consumers of boxing I don't even fully understand why people really care about PED usage. There is unfairness everywhere. Nature is unfair. Floyd & Manny shouldn't have had 80%-90% of their fights they are on such a uneven playing field vs their opponents. There is money everywhere which can enhance or decrease the things you have at your disposal to enhance or decrease your chances of winning. Some MMA guys are getting dead people's ACL's or whatever. How is that not cheating to get a dead person's ACL ffs? There are so many questionable things that make sports an uneven playing field you telling me this thing is illegal & this thing over here is legal makes lil sense to me nowadays.

Sorry Reggie , Can't agree . Steroids give an advantage , lets bring it down to non athletes , most countries nowadays have a problem with the young ones , a lot of them take anphetamines , stuff the coke up there nose , which is bad enough , but when there also gym junkies putting steroids in the ass , they become monsters .

Now obviously becoming a muscle bound freak is detrimental to boxing , but they do help in other ways , , they allow guys to get bigger, stronger faster , while keeping the weight off that in itself is an unfair advantage .

I've done many rounds in the gym with guys who i knew have been juicing and although i don't know too much , in fact almost nothing about it or how to do it , because its not something i've ever dealt with or dabbled in , One thing i do know is i've sparred guys and besides watching them get bigger i've felt there power increase along with there speed .

Plus it changes the mental focus , Now i agree at the really elite level like Floyd , and Paccy , it may not be such a big advantage , but you only need a little advantage to tip the scales on a level playing field .

I think that steroids / hgh offer minimal advantages to fighters below the light heavyweight limit. If you enter the ring at 140 pounds with 8% bodyfat thanks to the help of steroids, you don't have a major advantage over the guy who enters the ring at 140 pounds with 10% bodyfat and no help from steroids. But at heavyweight, if you are on steroids and have the body of David Haye or Mark De Mori, and your opponent is not on steroids and has the body of Andy Ruiz Jr. or Chauncy Welliver, then there's gonna be a considerable lack of fairness. I think EPO can be a much more unfair performance enhancer for high-output, 12-round fighters in a game like boxing where you're engaging in an activity that demands a lot of endurance.

I think a lot of PED-users go undetected because of the shortcomings of testing, and I think some positive test results get suppressed due confidentiality agreement or corrupt labs. There are undoubtedly several hall of famers who were never caught using PED's simply because they came from an era where steroids had been around for decades, but steroid-testing was non-existent. Attempting to exclude PED's from the sport entirely and then shame those who get caught is going to lead to vastly unequal treatment of fighters based on luck, timing, or the ability to cheat the system. Allowing all fighters access to PED's is likely to yield a more even playing field, though it will unfairly favor fighters who have a little money to waste, and it is still against the actual law in various places.

coneye wrote:Steroids give an advantage

it may not be such a big advantage, but you only need a little advantage to tip the scales on a level playing field.

I agree with this.

What I'm saying is a lot of things give you an advantage. The first of which is genes. If you're dad is 6'10 & your mom is 6'6 you probably stand a good chance at being a good basketball player one day. If your dad was Floyd Mayweather & your mom was Laila Ali you'd probably have some pretty good genes for boxing. Nature isn't fair. We aren't born equal.

And other things give advantages to. Eating good food, taking performance enhancers that aren't deemed illegal, having money to hire better trainers/doctors, getting certain surgeries to remove bone spurs or scar tissue, being trained from an early age so your muscle memory is incredible....on & on all day long.

I think its disingenuous to suggest an uneven playing field is why certain things that enhance your performance aren't legal. If you merely look at reality there is unevenness everywhere already. I mean we all know who are gonna win maybe 80%-90% of the fights that go down cuz there is a guy who's 18-0 fighting a guy who's 4-17. Thats uneven & happens daily in boxing. No one or few care that the losing record boxer is likely at increased risk of being permanently injured in an already dangerous sport & of lesser importance has a much lower chance to win cuz he's not in the ring with someone of a more competitive talent level as he is.

Lackeos, your analysis is great, thank you. Drugs are common in professional boxing.

And as it is for profit - prize boxing - maximum volume per bout - all people involved don't care.

So nobody should be surprized too much.

compared to the UFC, boxing is clean.

Boxing stands where every other sport stands ... like 80%+ are on something.

Someone here today posted that Briggs is in tip top shape .....

The "Having no rules on drugs makes it an even playing field" makes no sense at all. It reminds me of the argument that if we make drug use legal the drug problem will go away. I think not just in boxing, but in all sports it needs to get more stringent not less. We are missing the big picture, which is the message given to our youth, that they can compete better if they take drugs. Is leveling the playing field an OK argument for them too? Most fans of sports could care less about any athlete's health though, as long as we are entertained.


If they want it to stop, make any detection of any drug that is on the prohibited list a mandatory lifetime ban, with jail time if illegal, with no chance of appeal. It is plain to see though they do not want it to stop. Kind of like our government in the US saying they want illegal immigration to stop. Build a fence? If they make it a felony with a mandatory 20yr prison sentence for the employers that hire them, it will stop. Illegals won't come to the US if they can't work.

Badhusker wrote:It reminds me of the argument that if we make drug use legal the drug problem will go away.

Go read about Portugal & how they changed their drug laws over a decade ago & how things have changed for the better there. I don't see the comparison with PEDs, but as far as "illegal" drugs go Portugal should be the benchmark for open minded countries looking to stop spending billions of dollars & destroying thousands of lives over what is basically just a funner version of the stuff that doctors give you & I believe statistically less likely to kill you than doctor given drugs.

The "Having no rules on drugs makes it an even playing field" makes no sense at all.

I agree. Although I think the first problem with this statement is the implication there is a way to have an even playing field & some people seem to think there is or thats their problem with PEDs. If your problem with PEDs is an uneven playing field its a silly stance. The playing field has been, is currently & will continue to be uneven regardless of the use of performance enhancing products. If boxing only allowed fights that were considered "even" there'd be like 80% less fights lol.

I think not just in boxing, but in all sports it needs to get more stringent not less. We are missing the big picture, which is the message given to our youth, that they can compete better if they take drugs. Is leveling the playing field an OK argument for them too? Most fans of sports could care less about any athlete's health though, as long as we are entertained.

If they want it to stop, make any detection of any drug that is on the prohibited list a mandatory lifetime ban, with jail time if illegal, with no chance of appeal. It is plain to see though they do not want it to stop. Kind of like our government in the US saying they want illegal immigration to stop. Build a fence? If they make it a felony with a mandatory 20yr prison sentence for the employers that hire them, it will stop. Illegals won't come to the US if they can't work.

I actually was on board with most of what you are saying here maybe 18mos or so ago. Thing is if you look at where things are going & the likely endgame its an unwinnable war commissions & other groups are waging against illegal PEDs. The biggest problems is we are dealing with highly competitive individuals who have a desire to win like most people have never seen. They make a ton of sacrifices already. One more ain't that big a deal for a certain percentage of people.

The other really big problem is the testing is never gonna be able to keep up with the science. When a testing org gots a test for whatever new thing guys are doing, the guys doing that new thing will start doing some new new thing that it'll take months & months to come up with a test for.

And for me personally I believe the illegal PEDs will soon be impossible to detect they will be so ingrained with things are bodies already produce, plus we are probably a decade or two from people having robot legs & arms & sh!t as a personal decisions so there are bigger fish to fry in the not to distant future when Julio Cesar Chavez III wants to get a robot leg before his pro debut.

ReggieDiggs wrote:

Badhusker wrote:It reminds me of the argument that if we make drug use legal the drug problem will go away.

Go read about Portugal & how they changed their drug laws over a decade ago & how things have changed for the better there. I don't see the comparison with PEDs, but as far as "illegal" drugs go Portugal should be the benchmark for open minded countries looking to stop spending billions of dollars & destroying thousands of lives over what is basically just a funner version of the stuff that doctors give you & I believe statistically less likely to kill you than doctor given drugs.

The "Having no rules on drugs makes it an even playing field" makes no sense at all.

I agree. Although I think the first problem with this statement is the implication there is a way to have an even playing field & some people seem to think there is or thats their problem with PEDs. If your problem with PEDs is an uneven playing field its a silly stance. The playing field has been, is currently & will continue to be uneven regardless of the use of performance enhancing products. If boxing only allowed fights that were considered "even" there'd be like 80% less fights lol.

I think not just in boxing, but in all sports it needs to get more stringent not less. We are missing the big picture, which is the message given to our youth, that they can compete better if they take drugs. Is leveling the playing field an OK argument for them too? Most fans of sports could care less about any athlete's health though, as long as we are entertained.

If they want it to stop, make any detection of any drug that is on the prohibited list a mandatory lifetime ban, with jail time if illegal, with no chance of appeal. It is plain to see though they do not want it to stop. Kind of like our government in the US saying they want illegal immigration to stop. Build a fence? If they make it a felony with a mandatory 20yr prison sentence for the employers that hire them, it will stop. Illegals won't come to the US if they can't work.

I actually was on board with most of what you are saying here maybe 18mos or so ago. Thing is if you look at where things are going & the likely endgame its an unwinnable war commissions & other groups are waging against illegal PEDs. The biggest problems is we are dealing with highly competitive individuals who have a desire to win like most people have never seen. They make a ton of sacrifices already. One more ain't that big a deal for a certain percentage of people.

The other really big problem is the testing is never gonna be able to keep up with the science. When a testing org gots a test for whatever new thing guys are doing, the guys doing that new thing will start doing some new new thing that it'll take months & months to come up with a test for.

And for me personally I believe the illegal PEDs will soon be impossible to detect they will be so ingrained with things are bodies already produce, plus we are probably a decade or two from people having robot legs & arms & sh!t as a personal decisions so there are bigger fish to fry in the not to distant future when Julio Cesar Chavez III wants to get a robot leg before his pro debut.

You are right on a lot of points. In a perfect world we would love it if everyone was honest, but that isn't realistic. I guess we should just worry about things we can actually control, and the PED problem in sports seems like an uphill battle for anyone. In the end, I just hope it isn't our kids that suffer the effects of PEDS in their quest to be the best they can be as athletes. High Schools are rarely tested at all right now and possibly some of the most frequent users, (if they can afford it) because they know what a scholarship is worth $-wise. A lot of people hate Floyd for a lot of just reasons, but I do think he is a great example of what hard work without drinking, etc. can get you. Now if he would just clean up the rest of his life and personality, he could actually be a role model.

Badhusker wrote: You are right on a lot of points. In a perfect world we would love it if everyone was honest, but that isn't realistic. I guess we should just worry about things we can actually control, and the PED problem in sports seems like an uphill battle for anyone. In the end, I just hope it isn't our kids that suffer the effects of PEDS in their quest to be the best they can be as athletes. High Schools are rarely tested at all right now and possibly some of the most frequent users, (if they can afford it) because they know what a scholarship is worth $-wise. A lot of people hate Floyd for a lot of just reasons, but I do think he is a great example of what hard work without drinking, etc. can get you. Now if he would just clean up the rest of his life and personality, he could actually be a role model.

I think the illegal PEDs in HS is already disturbing. I seen a short doc about it awhile back & while I don't recall the stats I remembering cursing in surprise at the percentage. Thing is a bigger part of the problem is most people over 40 have been using drugs to "fix problems" for years. American culture is more about fixing symptoms than changing the root problem. A pill will fix it. I know more than a few people today who are using "smart" drugs they get from the dark web or getting from Canada & they say they'd be lost or way less productive without them. And I've been knowing people since middle school who were taking Ritalin or Adderall recreationally. The American culture is a drug culture. Thats another part of the reason I find all these holier than thou stances about PEDs weird & hypocritical.

Where we stand today; personally I think everyone should be tested randomly even when there isn't a fight going on/scheduled......there should be yearly randomized testing done on all athletes competing in any sport.

If you have nothing to hide then you should quietly and voluntarily submit to any testing, anyone who refuses and makes any excuses whatsoever is a cheater/fraud and should be banned from the sport for that period of the one year testing.

Unless the playing field is leveled and everyone is allowed to use whatever PEDS they want then the standard should be that everyone in every competitive sport (especially contact sports; Football, Boxing, MMA) should be randomly tested throughout the entire year and the Sanctioning Bodies/Organizations should be responsible for paying for since they don't do anything except get paid and even charging their fighters for lousy belts and titles that don't really mean all that much anyway.

KBB wrote:Where we stand today; personally I think everyone should be tested randomly even when there isn't a fight going on/scheduled......there should be yearly randomized testing done on all athletes competing in any sport.

If you have nothing to hide then you should quietly and voluntarily submit to any testing, anyone who refuses and makes any excuses whatsoever is a cheater/fraud and should be banned from the sport for that period of the one year testing.

Unless the playing field is leveled and everyone is allowed to use whatever PEDS they want then the standard should be that everyone in every competitive sport (especially contact sports; Football, Boxing, MMA) should be randomly tested throughout the entire year and the Sanctioning Bodies/Organizations should be responsible for paying for since they don't do anything except get paid and even charging their fighters for lousy belts and titles that don't really mean all that much anyway.

signed.

ReggieDiggs wrote:

Badhusker wrote: You are right on a lot of points. In a perfect world we would love it if everyone was honest, but that isn't realistic. I guess we should just worry about things we can actually control, and the PED problem in sports seems like an uphill battle for anyone. In the end, I just hope it isn't our kids that suffer the effects of PEDS in their quest to be the best they can be as athletes. High Schools are rarely tested at all right now and possibly some of the most frequent users, (if they can afford it) because they know what a scholarship is worth $-wise. A lot of people hate Floyd for a lot of just reasons, but I do think he is a great example of what hard work without drinking, etc. can get you. Now if he would just clean up the rest of his life and personality, he could actually be a role model.

I think the illegal PEDs in HS is already disturbing. I seen a short doc about it awhile back & while I don't recall the stats I remembering cursing in surprise at the percentage. Thing is a bigger part of the problem is most people over 40 have been using drugs to "fix problems" for years. American culture is more about fixing symptoms than changing the root problem. A pill will fix it. I know more than a few people today who are using "smart" drugs they get from the dark web or getting from Canada & they say they'd be lost or way less productive without them. And I've been knowing people since middle school who were taking Ritalin or Adderall recreationally. The American culture is a drug culture. Thats another part of the reason I find all these holier than thou stances about PEDs weird & hypocritical.

the american is human culture on steroids.

I personally wouldn't care of someone used or didn't use as I know I have fought guys before that have used steroids and I have won some and loss some I understand both sides but for the most part if your a heavyweight natural and you use it is gonna benefit you tremendously but if your a 160 pound guy and use it may make you weigh 185-190 but your chin has not grown with your mass so your not gonna be able to take a better punch that part is a gift no juice is gonna help you with lol

ReggieDiggs wrote:

Badhusker wrote: You are right on a lot of points. In a perfect world we would love it if everyone was honest, but that isn't realistic. I guess we should just worry about things we can actually control, and the PED problem in sports seems like an uphill battle for anyone. In the end, I just hope it isn't our kids that suffer the effects of PEDS in their quest to be the best they can be as athletes. High Schools are rarely tested at all right now and possibly some of the most frequent users, (if they can afford it) because they know what a scholarship is worth $-wise. A lot of people hate Floyd for a lot of just reasons, but I do think he is a great example of what hard work without drinking, etc. can get you. Now if he would just clean up the rest of his life and personality, he could actually be a role model.

I think the illegal PEDs in HS is already disturbing. I seen a short doc about it awhile back & while I don't recall the stats I remembering cursing in surprise at the percentage. Thing is a bigger part of the problem is most people over 40 have been using drugs to "fix problems" for years. American culture is more about fixing symptoms than changing the root problem. A pill will fix it. I know more than a few people today who are using "smart" drugs they get from the dark web or getting from Canada & they say they'd be lost or way less productive without them. And I've been knowing people since middle school who were taking Ritalin or Adderall recreationally. The American culture is a drug culture. Thats another part of the reason I find all these holier than thou stances about PEDs weird & hypocritical.

Reggie - I am one of those who believes the playing field should not be tilted in someone's favor because of taking PEDs. I don't use any, rarely take any over the counter medicines or prescriptions. I did have ACL reconstruction surgery but chose to use part of my own hamstring tendons as the replacement ACL instead of using an ACL from a cadaver. My son Jordan Shimmell was on the USA boxing team and part of the USADA testing protocols for several years. He was randomly tested a bunch of times and was always clean (there is a list somewhere which shows how many times each USA athlete was tested and if there were any suspensions). He doesn't use PEDs. He knows guys his age who did in H.S. and in college. He has competed against guys in boxing who most likely used. He has been tested several times in his pro career and has always been clean. Other pro boxers at some of the shows he has fought at have tested dirty including Ortiz when he fought Kayode.

PEDs have been shown to allow athletes to train harder for a longer period of time which benefits them greatly. The blood doping including EPO allows athletes to perform at a high level for a longer period of time which benefits boxers in 10 & 12 round bouts. I believe they should be banned and there should be more testing not less. It has been reported that the Premier Boxing Champions series to be broadcast on numerous TV networks including NBC, NBCSN, CBS, CBSSN, Showtime, Spike, BET, etc. will require each boxer who competes in a PBC series bout to be subjected to rigorous, Olympic-style random drug testing by the United States Anti-Doping Agency [USADA]. I believe that is the right path to take.