BoxRec

A prime George Foreman against a prime Jack Jackson.


What advantages would George have over Jack?


What advantages would Jack have over George?


What do you see happening in this fight?


Who would win?



Why?

It goes one of two ways.... either Foreman annihilates Johnson fast... or it turns into a Tony Thompson-David Price type affair, where the bigger, stronger man gasses out and Johnson manages to survive the storm and give the young Foreman a boxing lesson and drops him.

Foreman heavy KO after puzzling out the defensive master after 2 rounds.

Foreman's style is tailor-made for Johnson. Johnson by late stoppage.

Much is written about Jack Johnson's defense. Yet it doesn't look great in his filmed fights. Johnson had a low guard and does not use his feet very often.

Johnson was a good in-fighter. He liked to clinch and use his strength to set up a nice uppercut. That worked in his day when matched vs. men his size or smaller. We are talking about George Foreman here. Foreman butchers fighters on the inside or anyone with a low guard and stationary feet. Johnson's chin would not hold up enough to get Foreman in the later rounds.

Foreman KO inside of six round.

This is a tossup. (These are the #3 and #4 heavyweights on my alltime list.)
Foreman was an awesome offensive fighter. He threw a lot of punches and had a ton of power. It's very easy to see him blowing out Johnson early.
However, Johnson was a great defensive fighter. He did things effectively that for whatever reason went out of style. He would block punches with his gloves, and would also roll with punches so they didn't connect squarely.

If Johnson survives the early barrage (and there is a good chance he would), he has a good chance to win. However, even then it's not automatic. It's not out of the question that Foreman could actually win a decision. Foreman's did have stamina problems, but if it's a 10 or 12 round fight he should be able to last the distance; he did that in other fights. Whether he could build up enough of a lead in the early rounds would be the question.

If it's for 15 or 20 rounds, Johnson would win almost certainly.

Foreman ko round 5

Johnson never fought anyone remotely like Foreman. He preferred little guys or large plodders with no chance of hurting him. I seriously doubt any promoter could convince Jack to get in the ring with George Foreman..

If they did actually fight, Foreman would knock him out in 2 or 3 rounds.

If Foreman had the title, Johnson would have fought him.

Ambling Alp II wrote:If Foreman had the title, Johnson would have fought him.

I agree. Johnson was alot of things, but a coward he wasn't.

I don't buy into the historic bias that he was Ali before Ali, and that he was an all-time great, and that he was unbeatable, etc. like alot of people made him out to be--- and he certainly was no hero in my eyes. He was an abusive wife beater, pimp, con artist, and all-around rude and crude man. The stories of his heroism and the like, only came in the decades after his death and people taking his autobiography as literal truth.

But a coward he wasn't. You got to understand, this was a man who still in his green horn years, traveled all the way to California and challenged champion Jim Jeffries in a bar. Big Jeff certainly would of beat him silly at that stage of his career, but it goes to show you the kind of personal faith and self belief Johnson had. His approach was, nothing in reality could possibly be as scary as it was imagined. He had to see things for himself, and had to face it head on.

But I think against a George Foreman... that kind of heroism would of gotten him seriously hurt. Not that Johnson couldn't take a punch, or a beating. Cus he could. His fights with Jim Flynn are proof of that when he got head butted repeatedly and just laughed. And it's not like he didn't face men just as big and as strong as George--- Sam McVey, Jess Willard to name two. But what Johnson NEVER faced was a man as explosive, fierce, conditioned, skilled and as tough as Foreman.

I can't see a glove blocker, standing straight up, and forcing clinches being able to try and clinch Foreman or try and block Foreman's shots, or be stupid enough to trade with him. Skilled, tough, strong and brave as Ron Lyle was... he couldn't last up to Foreman's power and toughness and size. And Lyle was good, damn good. In any other era he could of been a world champion. Hell, I'd argue Ron Lyle probably could of beaten Johnson himself!

Two, three, rounds tops.

Really? On March 7, you said this could go either way, with the possibility that Johnson wins a long fight.
Yes, Lyle (like Johnson) was tough, strong, and brave. However, he wasn't in Johnson's league in the skill department.
Being a "glove blocker" is a good thing.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Really? On March 7, you said this could go either way, with the possibility that Johnson wins a long fight.
Yes, Lyle (like Johnson) was tough, strong, and brave. However, he wasn't in Johnson's league in the skill department.
Being a "glove blocker" is a good thing.

The more I think on it, the less I like Johnson's chances. His 'Aliesque' skills are over-played, over-hyped, etc. he was too straight legged, and wide open for someone like George. He'd get destroyed.

I have never seen anyone compare his fighting style it Ali, so I don't know why you keep saying it's overrated.

Johnson was not wide open for anything. He was hard to catch cleanly. Foreman was not particularly accurate nor did he possess great handspeed. He did throw a great volume of punches; maybe Foreman catches him early and hurts him, maybe he doesn't. There is certainly no guarantee of that.

Ambling Alp II wrote:I have never seen anyone compare his fighting style it Ali, so I don't know why you keep saying it's overrated.

Johnson was not wide open for anything. He was hard to catch cleanly. Foreman was not particularly accurate nor did he possess great handspeed. He did throw a great volume of punches; maybe Foreman catches him early and hurts him, maybe he doesn't. There is certainly no guarantee of that.

It could also be that he was hard to hit because he fought smaller, near ancient, and limited fighters (by and large) throughout his career too. He was surely the strongest, toughest, and most well conditioned and most importantly calm and collected fighter of his time--- but let's not say he was untouchable. He was RIGHT THERE for the taking in every fight, and the fact is the caliber of opposition simply wasn't there to capitalize on him.

Not to say he didn't fight good fighters--- back when he was facing McVea, Jeanette, Langford--- but let's put that into perspective also. You always hear how the black fighters were just 'too good' and that's why the color line was drawn. I think that's more a myth than anything. Let me ask you a question, hypothetically... if you had a small group of amateurs (lets say 5 people), and they turned pro, and all they ever did was fight one another in the pros... would you bet on them to beat a fighter who fought a myriad of challengers? Myself, no, I wouldnt. So why is it, then, do we create these men who only fought a small handful of people dozens of times, to be these untouchable forces in boxing? Of them all... Johnson and Langford and Wills are really the only ones who 'made it out' of the box and garnered worldwide attention, and even Johnson, Langford and Wills lost to some average-above average fighters like Fred Fulton, Marvin Hart, etc.

I'm not necessarily knocking the man--- but being a realist and breaking it all down--- much as I love the old-timers from the past and love to fancy the notion of a Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, etc. fighting men of later eras--- I have a very hard time imagining almost anyone being able to defeat Foreman in his prime (Ali excluded). For my money, Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott were ABOVE AND BEYOND the likes of Jack Johnson, and I can't see them being able to beat Foreman.

Another rambling post?
Of course the color line was drawn. Did Willard take on any black challengers during his 5 year reign? No. Contenders often were not eager to fight them either. This isn't exactly breaking news.

McVey, Jeannette, Langford, and Wills were great fighters. They beat other good black fighters that seldom get attention. Take a look at their careers and you will see a lot of good wins and very few losses to less than great opponents.
Wills handily beat Firpo when he was 35. He knocked out Fulton in three rounds.
The Johnson-Hart fight was widely considered to a robbery.
Langford was past it when he lost to Fulton.

Johnson was a better fighter than Charles and Walcott. They each lost multiple times to fighters nowhere near as good as Johnson.

I know you had your great awakening and now think Johnson has no chance against Foreman. However, lets not get silly. Johnson was one of the great heavyweights of all time. McVey, Jeannette, Langford, and Wills were great and they were often avoided.

These fights from such different eras are tricky. There's two schools of thought it seems.

1. Old timers were slower and smaller. Modern fighters are faster, hit harder and like other sports like athletics, humans get better. Older era fighters don't have a prayer and get steamrolled by modern fighers.
2. Old school fighters were tougher than today and harder. Life was harder and these people were harder too. Old school fighers were great and would beat todays guys.

I've kind of swayed between these two schools of thought over the years. At one stage I'd have said Foreman KO1 and at other times I'd say Johnson far too great and skilled and easy points of even stoppage.

These days I think that the truth is somewhere between the two schools. Was johnson greater than foreman? Absoluely no doubt, he was the best of his era and an icon, Foreman was prob top 3/4 of his and a great fighter but didn't dominate like Johnson did.

One thing that's for sure though is that Foreman is the guy that did step into 2 or really 3 eras (70s, missed the 80s and fought in the 90s). He was a champ in two of these and I think this goes some way to show that older fighters are not automatically cannon fodder for modern ones.

I find it hard to believe that Johnson wouldn't be tough enough and skilled enough to beat foreman like Ali did if I'm honest but ofc one shot could end it all.

pound per pound wrote:Much is written about Jack Johnson's defense. Yet it doesn't look great in his filmed fights. Johnson had a low guard and does not use his feet very often.

Johnson was a good in-fighter. He liked to clinch and use his strength to set up a nice uppercut. That worked in his day when matched vs. men his size or smaller. We are talking about George Foreman here. Foreman butchers fighters on the inside or anyone with a low guard and stationary feet. Johnson's chin would not hold up enough to get Foreman in the later rounds.

Foreman KO inside of six round.

This seems a good analysis.
Only thing is films in those days are so bad and few its hard to know what to make of them. Johnson era guys seem almost more adapted to bare knuckle brawling than modern boxing. So I guess I favour Foreman, but Johnson seems like the kind of character to stand up to him and possibly take all he has to offer.
Still, Foreman is a known quantity so I'd favour him by ko as of now.

Johnson even as great has he was in his era and he would have faced some very tough/talented men i'v never heard of :??
but against Foremen a man who probably punched harder than anyone Johnson ever faced and the strength Big George possessed
would have been too much fore Johnson and I believe it would have ended pretty much the same as the Norton fight
as soon has he catches up to Johnson he would blast away with both hand's and ko him in brutal fashion 2 round's Johnson is History

Before reading the replies I was going to say Johnson. Now I don't know. I was never a big George Fan. He was a big awesome heavy puncher but I felt he was lacking some of what makes the science 'sweet'.

George was overwhelming when he had opponents that fought like himself. When I think of what he did Joe Frazier it's hard not like him.

However Ali outsmarted him handily when Big George was supposed to be the favorite.

From the fight films I've seen of Johnson. He had a very difficult style to engage and he could punch very hard and he could be very cruel if he got a man hurt. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ommy+burns

I'm on the fence but if I was going to the fight I'd be pulling for Johnson. If I had any money it would be on Johnson just like my money was on Ali.

Ambling Alp II wrote:If Foreman had the title, Johnson would have fought him.

Not so sure. Johnson was no risk-taker. He avoided Sam Langford because he felt there was always a chance that Sam might win and he wanted to go down as the only black man to hold the world heavyweight title. He never fought the best white hope of the day Gunboat Smith either, preferring to beat up the much smaller Jim Flynn, Stanley Ketchel, and Jack O'Brien. He finally did box Frank Moran, a man his own size, but fought a purely defensive battle against a pretty one-dimensional brawler, unwilling to take a risk. And there was the sorry exhibition with Battling Jim Johnson, another b-class heavy.

George Foreman would have walked through Johnson the way he did Norton. In fact most of the top guys in the 60s and 70s would have whipped Johnson to a frazzle.

He certainly would have fought Foreman if Foreman was the champion. No way that he would have passed up a chance for the money and fame. Even if you lose while going for the title, you are going to get a big payday. Johnson would have taken that chance, no doubt about it.

Johnson would have have beaten Gunboat Smith without too much trouble.
He fought a smart fight against Moran; why mix it up if that is the only way he could lose?

Top guys of the 1960s and 1970? Well the early 1970s had Ali, Foreman, Frazier, and Holmes at the end of the 1970s which would have been tough fights for anyone in history. I would still give Johnson a serious chance against any of them. He would have most likely beaten anyone else in the 1970s. Liston from the early 1960s is the only other guy who would have a decent chance against Johnson.

You are selling Johnson short.

foreman easily

Foreman wins inside 3 round's.

Joe Choynski, a light heavyweight, showed that Johnson could be knocked out if hit hard enough. Foreman would destroy Johnson because Lil Artha couldn't hurt Foreman and Big George could walk through Johnson's feeble defence.

The Choynski fight was pretty early in Johnson's career. He had virtually no managenement/training team behind him at this stage.
Feeble defense? Johnson had a very good defense.
Not saying Johnson certainly would have won. Could have gone either way.