BoxRec

Best British Heavyweight (excluding Lennox).....??????

Since I don't really consider Bob Fitz a heavyweight, my vote goes to Tommy Farr.

Agreed.

I'd be interested to see how history views Haye, Price, Fury et al.

Depends on what you're looking for Tommy far ran Joe Louis very close ,Bruno won the WBC belt and haye won a major belt , cooper lost at world level when he moved up . I'd probably go with Bruno over haye as haye just didn't fight to much as a heavy.

stevedoc wrote:Depends on what you're looking for Tommy far ran Joe Louis very close ,Bruno won the WBC belt and haye won a major belt , cooper lost at world level when he moved up . I'd probably go with Bruno over haye as haye just didn't fight to much as a heavy.

Haye's "belt" was complete paper rubbish . . .barely outpointed Valuev (who himself got a gift over Ruiz the first time around and only had the belt because of Chagaev's Hepatitis) who had just lost to a 48 year old Holyfield.

dempseyfire wrote:

stevedoc wrote:Depends on what you're looking for Tommy far ran Joe Louis very close ,Bruno won the WBC belt and haye won a major belt , cooper lost at world level when he moved up . I'd probably go with Bruno over haye as haye just didn't fight to much as a heavy.

Haye's "belt" was complete paper rubbish . . .barely outpointed Valuev (who himself got a gift over Ruiz the first time around and only had the belt because of Chagaev's Hepatitis) who had just lost to a 48 year old Holyfield.

Hence why I picked Bruno

Always get into arguments with people from the United Kingdom in general over what constitutes an Englishman, etc.

Some will boldly say that Wales, Cornwall, etc. are apart of the Empire so therefore they are considered British.

Most will consider it an insult if you called a Welshman a Brit, or vice versa.

So I'm always kind of perplexed as to whether to include Fitzsimmons into that grouping or not.

Historically, the best (overall) in my view was Jem Mace. Almost single handedly he sold boxing to the planet. Unfortunately for Mace, right when the sport was really getting major coverage and exposure, he was too old to really compete with the up and comers. So instead, he became a talent scout finding opponents for John L. Sullivan and things of that nature.

Of the modern era.... it's a bit harder to say... if you can't have Lewis in there, and you can't consider Fitz as an Englishman, and no one really gives credit to the old-timers like Mace... you're left with either blown up lighter weight fighters who failed to equal their earlier exploits at lower weights (Haye, Cockell) or you have alphabet title holders who didn't much impress no one outside of England (Bruno, Hide). Tommy Farr, I always assumed was from Wales, so can he be considered English? I think not if we are to not include Fitz for being a next door neighbor (so to speak) to Wales.

That leaves, then, arguably the greatest Commonwealth champion of all time: Henry Cooper. We could also throw into the mix other Commonwealth types like John L. Gardner, or even Bruce Woodcock. But I don't think they would suffice to anyone's liking either. So, I have to say the one who probably came closest to answering the question on this thread:

ade the grenade wrote:Agreed.

I'd be interested to see how history views Haye, Price, Fury et al.

Only time will tell.

Yes the question is the best British heavy apart from Lennox not English.

The options are: Fitz, Farr, Cooper, Bugner, Bruno and Haye.

Farr was a kind of commonwealth/euro guy for many years and his rep is really based on his loss to louis. he also lost on points to braddock, Baer, Nova etc.

Cooper - great at Euro level but beaten by ali and koed by patterson and johannson

Bugner - Talented but again never really won at top level - unucky to be around in the 70s tho and fought brilliantly aganst frazier

Bruno - beaten by top class again - tyson, spoon. lucky to face mccall - really euro level

Haye - world class cruiser. looked great but exposed a bit in the boxing dept by WK

Fitz - world middle champ beating a brilliant title holder, beat a top class guy for undisputed heavy title, lost to another top class champ in jeffries. fought at top level for like 20 years - koed maher, tom sharkey and choynski all within a round or two.

It has to be fitz. He was Cornish so English and British - changed citizenship later I know but still he's ours in my book.

HomicideHenry wrote:Always get into arguments with people from the United Kingdom in general over what constitutes an Englishman, etc.

Some will boldly say that Wales, Cornwall, etc. are apart of the Empire so therefore they are considered British.

Most will consider it an insult if you called a Welshman a Brit, or vice versa.

So I'm always kind of perplexed as to whether to include Fitzsimmons into that grouping or not.

Historically, the best (overall) in my view was Jem Mace. Almost single handedly he sold boxing to the planet. Unfortunately for Mace, right when the sport was really getting major coverage and exposure, he was too old to really compete with the up and comers. So instead, he became a talent scout finding opponents for John L. Sullivan and things of that nature.

Of the modern era.... it's a bit harder to say... if you can't have Lewis in there, and you can't consider Fitz as an Englishman, and no one really gives credit to the old-timers like Mace... you're left with either blown up lighter weight fighters who failed to equal their earlier exploits at lower weights (Haye, Cockell) or you have alphabet title holders who didn't much impress no one outside of England (Bruno, Hide). Tommy Farr, I always assumed was from Wales, so can he be considered English? I think not if we are to not include Fitz for being a next door neighbor (so to speak) to Wales.

That leaves, then, arguably the greatest Commonwealth champion of all time: Henry Cooper. We could also throw into the mix other Commonwealth types like John L. Gardner, or even Bruce Woodcock. But I don't think they would suffice to anyone's liking either. So, I have to say the one who probably came closest to answering the question on this thread:

ade the grenade wrote:Agreed.

I'd be interested to see how history views Haye, Price, Fury et al.

Only time will tell.

Fitzsimmons was half Irish anyway.
So was Henry Cooper's grandfather.

Beyond Lewis, if we are being honest, the cupboard is pretty bare.

It's between Bruno and Haye. Both British, although I'm sure both must have drunk a Guinness before so in yank terms that makes them 3/4's Irish I guess.

I think its fair to say that there's no Scottish guys in the mix

Henry Cooper deserves a mention. Granted, he was never a World Champion, but he did win the British, Commonwealth & European Heavyweight titles.

cfang wrote:Yes the question is the best British heavy apart from Lennox not English.

The options are: Fitz, Farr, Cooper, Bugner, Bruno and Haye.

Farr was a kind of commonwealth/euro guy for many years and his rep is really based on his loss to louis. he also lost on points to braddock, Baer, Nova etc.

Cooper - great at Euro level but beaten by ali and koed by patterson and johannson

Bugner - Talented but again never really won at top level - unucky to be around in the 70s tho and fought brilliantly aganst frazier

Bruno - beaten by top class again - tyson, spoon. lucky to face mccall - really euro level

Haye - world class cruiser. looked great but exposed a bit in the boxing dept by WK

Fitz - world middle champ beating a brilliant title holder, beat a top class guy for undisputed heavy title, lost to another top class champ in jeffries. fought at top level for like 20 years - koed maher, tom sharkey and choynski all within a round or two.

It has to be fitz. He was Cornish so English and British - changed citizenship later I know but still he's ours in my book.

Farr has wins over two hall of famers (Baer and Loughran) and he deserved the win over Braddock. That beats anything the likes of Bruno, Bugner, Cooper ever did.
Was thrown to the wolves when he went to America and losing competitive contests vs Louis, Baer in a rematch, Nova is nothing to be ashamed of. Also avenged his loss to Burman who was an excellent boxer.

Crease wrote:Henry Cooper deserves a mention. Granted, he was never a World Champion, but he did win the British, Commonwealth & European Heavyweight titles.

He actually won those 3 titles in the 50s, 60s and 70s which I think deserves a mention

No ones mentioned Michael bentt........

No one wants to claim Michael Bentt.

I hope Nigeria take responsibility for Henry Akinwande.

WBO champions are meaningless anyway.

Joe Bugner seems a good choice, as does Tommy Farr. If Farr can evade Louis 15 rounds I would expect him to make Frank Bruno fairly silly.

Tuan_Jim wrote:WBO champions are meaningless anyway.

Maybe in the Heavyweight division of the past 20 years. But in other divisions, there has been numerous examples of the WBO Champion being the number one man in the division.

These days, I just tend to accept all the "big four" being as bad as each other.

Only in the last decade will you find the number 1 man in the division holding a WBO belt. The shift began in 2004 when Hopkins won, and decided to keep, de la Hoya's ill-gotten WBO trinket. Boxing really didn't need a 4th belt. And so naturally Boxing decided it needed a 4th belt.

Tuan_Jim wrote:No one wants to claim Michael Bentt.

I hope Nigeria take responsibility for Henry Akinwande.

WBO champions are meaningless anyway.

Joe Bugner seems a good choice, as does Tommy Farr. If Farr can evade Louis 15 rounds I would expect him to make Frank Bruno fairly silly.

Henry Akinwande was born in England, whilst Joe Bugner was born in Hungary.

Bruce Woodcock !

Farr, Haye, Bruno, Bugner, Cooper, Woodcock, Hide, Dick Richardson, Don Cockell and Brian London as a Top 10 in the modern era.
Notable mentions for Akinwande, the talented Erskine and the brave Richard Dunn. The Cornishman and the Bombardier, Billy Wells, before that.

Farr was one of the few Brits the American fans and press genuinely respected before the old joke of the 'horizontal British heavyweight' came into parlance and although Bugner often frustrated and did not always use his size and power as some people would have liked early in his career; he went the distance with Ali twice and was not made to look like a fool...many, many other good men were.

Dick Richardson interests me. His record ain't too handy on first inspection, but he fought everyone out there, and knocking out London and Mildenburger suggests that he was not a man to be messed with and just a shade/break away from being world class.

ade the grenade wrote:
Henry Akinwande was born in England, whilst Joe Bugner was born in Hungary.

Both men moved country when they were tiny children. Akinwande to Nigeria - hence his thick Nigerian accent - and Bugner to England. It was a glib remark anyway, I don't care where people come from, I was mainly commenting on Akinwande's horrific style of boxing and his winning a 'world title' without stepping into world class. When he did, he was humilated against Lennox Lewis. When he tried again, McCall left him facedown unconscious.

I just hate, hate, hate these Herbie Hide, Akinwande types we Brits were expected to take seriously in the 1990s. Even the commentators couldn't keep a straight face when they'd say, 'we didn't have a heavyweight champion for a 100 years, and now we've had 'three' in the last three years!'

It was preposterous.

Bodyshot3 wrote:Farr, Haye, Bruno, Bugner, Cooper, Woodcock, Hide, Dick Richardson, Don Cockell and Brian London as a Top 10 in the modern era.
Notable mentions for Akinwande, the talented Erskine and the brave Richard Dunn. The Cornishman and the Bombardier, Billy Wells, before that.

Farr was one of the few Brits the American fans and press genuinely respected before the old joke of the 'horizontal British heavyweight' came into parlance and although Bugner often frustrated and did not always use his size and power as some people would have liked early in his career; he went the distance with Ali twice and was not made to look like a fool...many, many other good men were.

Dick Richardson interests me. His record ain't too handy on first inspection, but he fought everyone out there, and knocking out London and Mildenburger suggests that he was not a man to be messed with and just a shade/break away from being world class.

Jack Peterson is also worth a mention.

Jack Peterson is also worth a mention.

Agreed Broomhall....Jack P, Joe Erskine and Richardson all strike me as guys who got very close to being much bigger figures in the British heavyweight scene.

Erskine interests me a fair bit...he was apparently a very wise, skillful operator who gave nearly everyone problems. Worth a bit of a further research?

Erskine looked like he was going places until he ran into Nino Valdes. Reading between the lines I would say that Erskine just froze on the night, but was never really the same fighter after that.