BoxRec

HomicideHenry wrote:I personally have Holmes tied with Ali for the number one spot for the greatest heavyweight of all time. Why? Cus of his dominance, and because he's also the only man I can name--- who potentially could of beaten Ali at any stage of his career. I cant say the same for others in the top ten. The rest of the field could of potentially beaten the 1970's version that was slower, etc. but not the 1960's version. I can see Holmes doing the feat against both versions of Ali.

HomicideHenry wrote:I personally have Holmes tied with Ali for the number one spot for the greatest heavyweight of all time. Why? Cus of his dominance, and because he's also the only man I can name--- who potentially could of beaten Ali at any stage of his career. I cant say the same for others in the top ten. The rest of the field could of potentially beaten the 1970's version that was slower, etc. but not the 1960's version. I can see Holmes doing the feat against both versions of Ali.

ade the grenade wrote:If we're taking about Wlad (which I assume we are) how do you think history will view Vitali?

man wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:I personally have Holmes tied with Ali for the number one spot for the greatest heavyweight of all time. Why? Cus of his dominance, and because he's also the only man I can name--- who potentially could of beaten Ali at any stage of his career. I cant say the same for others in the top ten. The rest of the field could of potentially beaten the 1970's version that was slower, etc. but not the 1960's version. I can see Holmes doing the feat against both versions of Ali.

second this. i don't see louis, dempsey, marciano
or lewis winning against ali-sixites. no idea how
wlad would do. but holmes ... any day of the week.
he seemed to me always like the less poetic but
very efficient version of ali.

HomicideHenry wrote:I personally have Holmes tied with Ali for the number one spot for the greatest heavyweight of all time. Why? Cus of his dominance, and because he's also the only man I can name--- who potentially could of beaten Ali at any stage of his career. I cant say the same for others in the top ten. The rest of the field could of potentially beaten the 1970's version that was slower, etc. but not the 1960's version. I can see Holmes doing the feat against both versions of Ali.

unifythebelts wrote:The whole "Ali is the greatest" stuff is so played out and so not based in fact or logic. How would Ali beat Wlad? Certainly not by power...and judging based on the performance this past weekend against a man in better shape than Ali ever was, probably not by speed. But Ali's chin would have been punished. He never faced a guy who was 6'6", 240 of pure muscle, with a finely tuned defensive style and a devastating power punch. Ali was not great defensively (he took a ton of punches in his career and hit the canvas a half-dozen times) and had he stepped into the ring with either Klitschko brother there's no way he would see the final bell. He outweighed Cooper by 20 pounds and Cooper had a 50% KO rate, so he wasn't all that powerful...but he put Ali on the floor. The men who knocked Wlad down were all huge, bigger and stronger than Ali and certainly bigger than Cooper or Banks.

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:I personally have Holmes tied with Ali for the number one spot for the greatest heavyweight of all time. Why? Cus of his dominance, and because he's also the only man I can name--- who potentially could of beaten Ali at any stage of his career. I cant say the same for others in the top ten. The rest of the field could of potentially beaten the 1970's version that was slower, etc. but not the 1960's version. I can see Holmes doing the feat against both versions of Ali.

I personally believe you should watch the DOCO about their fight you don't have to be a doctor to know Ali should not have been near a boxing ring
let alone in their with the Heavyweight champ of the day Ali failed a neoroligist test had trouble touching the tip of his nose with his finger also that the doctors doing these test were very surprised regarding Ali lack of agility
during the fight Holmes corner repeatedly told Holmes to end IT knock Ali out Holmes could not EVEN knock him down
NEXT YOU'LL BE SAYING HOLMES WOULD KNOCK ALI OUT AT ANY STAGE OF HIS CAREER

amwsnw wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:I personally have Holmes tied with Ali for the number one spot for the greatest heavyweight of all time. Why? Cus of his dominance, and because he's also the only man I can name--- who potentially could of beaten Ali at any stage of his career. I cant say the same for others in the top ten. The rest of the field could of potentially beaten the 1970's version that was slower, etc. but not the 1960's version. I can see Holmes doing the feat against both versions of Ali.

I personally believe you should watch the DOCO about their fight you don't have to be a doctor to know Ali should not have been near a boxing ring
let alone in their with the Heavyweight champ of the day Ali failed a neoroligist test had trouble touching the tip of his nose with his finger also that the doctors doing these test were very surprised regarding Ali lack of agility
during the fight Holmes corner repeatedly told Holmes to end IT knock Ali out Holmes could not EVEN knock him down
NEXT YOU'LL BE SAYING HOLMES WOULD KNOCK ALI OUT AT ANY STAGE OF HIS CAREER

I thought we were comparing them whilst both in their prime and i think Holmes could match it with Ali, no doubt. Im not sure where the reference to their 1980 fight came into but i think we all know that should never have happened.

dempseyfire wrote:Holmes beat a couple of Hall of Famers (Spinks unofficially) and despite some weak defenses fought a superior calibre of comp to Klitschko. Witherspoon is by far better than anyone Wlad has beaten.

Tuan_Jim wrote:If Clinchko wants to match stats with the greats he better unify and start defending the belts soon, because he's already 39.

The problem with this lazy Holmes comparison is that Larry Holmes was in so many thrilling fights. A lot of people are very excited by having this white superman as heavyweight champion and turn a blind eye to his many flaws. When future generations hear of this titan Wladimir Klitschko, and seek out his crowning glories - Ibragimov, Haye, Povetkin - they are going to be bored to sleep, and left wondering what on earth all the fuss was about.

He just doesn't have the stamina, ring IQ or arsenal of punches to handle athletic, moving heavyweights. Jennings with all his limitations and lack of punch power really made him look as ordinary as he is.

fergusg wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:The problem with this lazy Holmes comparison is that Larry Holmes was in so many thrilling fights. A lot of people are very excited by having this white superman as heavyweight champion and turn a blind eye to his many flaws. When future generations hear of this titan Wladimir Klitschko, and seek out his crowning glories - Ibragimov, Haye, Povetkin - they are going to be bored to sleep, and left wondering what on earth all the fuss was about.

I think you've expressed a very lazy uneducated opinion!

Here’s a list of the world title fights that Larry Holmes emerged victorious:
• Carl Williams
• James Smith
• Scott Frank
• Tim Witherspoon
• Lucien Rodriguez
• Gerry Cooney
• Renaldo Snipes
• Leon Spinks
• Trevor Berbick
• Muhammad Ali
• Scott LeDoux
• Lorenzo Zanon
• Earnie Shavers
• Mike Weaver
• Ossie Ocasio
• Alfredo Evangelista
• Ken Norton

His victories over Tim Witherspoon & Ken Norton were impressive, but unfortunately for him, he fought in an era where the quality of opposition he faced was merely mediocre.

If you compare the title challengers to what Wladimir faced, are the two eras that much different (in calibre of opposition)?

Here’s a list of the men that Klitschko successfully defeated in 25 of his world heavyweight championship fights:
• Bryant Jennings
• Kubrat Pulev
• Alex Leapai
• Alexander Povetkin
• Francesco Pianeta
• Mariusz Wach
• Tony Thompson
• Jean Marc Mormeck
• David Haye
• Samuel Peter
• Eddie Chambers
• Ruslan Chagaev
• Hasim Rahman
• Sultan Ibragimov
• Lamon Brewster
• Ray Austin
• Calvin Brock
• Chris Byrd
• Jameel McCline
• Ray Mercer
• Frans Botha
• Charles Shufford
• Derrick Jefferson

fergusg wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:The problem with this lazy Holmes comparison is that Larry Holmes was in so many thrilling fights. A lot of people are very excited by having this white superman as heavyweight champion and turn a blind eye to his many flaws. When future generations hear of this titan Wladimir Klitschko, and seek out his crowning glories - Ibragimov, Haye, Povetkin - they are going to be bored to sleep, and left wondering what on earth all the fuss was about.

I think you've expressed a very lazy uneducated opinion!

Here’s a list of the world title fights that Larry Holmes emerged victorious:
• Carl Williams
• James Smith
• Scott Frank
• Tim Witherspoon
• Lucien Rodriguez
• Gerry Cooney
• Renaldo Snipes
• Leon Spinks
• Trevor Berbick
• Muhammad Ali
• Scott LeDoux
• Lorenzo Zanon
• Earnie Shavers
• Mike Weaver
• Ossie Ocasio
• Alfredo Evangelista
• Ken Norton

His victories over Tim Witherspoon & Ken Norton were impressive, but unfortunately for him, he fought in an era where the quality of opposition he faced was merely mediocre.

If you compare the title challengers to what Wladimir faced, are the two eras that much different (in calibre of opposition)?

Here’s a list of the men that Klitschko successfully defeated in 25 of his world heavyweight championship fights:
• Bryant Jennings
• Kubrat Pulev
• Alex Leapai
• Alexander Povetkin
• Francesco Pianeta
• Mariusz Wach
• Tony Thompson
• Jean Marc Mormeck
• David Haye
• Samuel Peter
• Eddie Chambers
• Ruslan Chagaev
• Hasim Rahman
• Sultan Ibragimov
• Lamon Brewster
• Ray Austin
• Calvin Brock
• Chris Byrd
• Jameel McCline
• Ray Mercer
• Frans Botha
• Charles Shufford
• Derrick Jefferson

The average weight of a Larry Holmes opponent during his successful world title fights, excluding three anomalous flabby behemoths (Leroy Jones, David Bey & Randall Cobb), was 216lbs.

Prior to the Bryant Jennings bout, excluding equally anomalous “small” heavyweight opponents, who have all campaigned as cruiserweights (i.e. Chris Byrd, Eddie Chambers, David Haye & Jean Marc Mormeck), the average weight of a Dr. Steelhammer title challenger is 239lbs. Wladmir's average over the course of the same bouts was 244lbs.

If you consider the fact that in Larry Holmes’ era, weigh-ins took place on the day of the fight itself, coupled with their typically fleshy physiques, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of his opponents would have campaigned as cruiserweights if they were active today.

fergusg wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:You're under a baffling misapprehension that weight equates talent.

I never said that, but there’s a reason why weight divisions exist and 25lbs+ is a massive handicap to overcome, unless you feel that Floyd Mayweather should be fighting Sergey Kovalev?