Georges Carpentier
Posted: 22 Jun 2004, 09:30
Can anyone explain the origin of his nickname 'The Orchid Man' to me, please?
He liked flowers?
Page 1 of 1
Posted: 22 Jun 2004, 11:29
eeer at the risk of being fec...ferc...faec......(aaah f*ck it) cheeky.
He liked flowers?
He liked flowers?
Posted: 22 Jun 2004, 11:39
Titles: Light-heavyweight champion from 1920-1922
Record: 88-14-6 (51 K.O's)
Born: January 12, 1894 in Lens, France
Years active: 1907-1927
Nickname: The Orchid Man
This French fighter fought almost exclusively in France during his ring
career and amazingly fought in every weight class from flyweight all the
way to heavyweight. He was idolized because of his good looks and personal
flair in both France and the United States. Starting his career as a 13
year old flyweight in 1908 he improved rapidly and held his first French
title at the age of 15 at lightweight. At the age of 17 won the European
welterweight title with a 16th round knockout of Robert Eustache. His
combination of stylish boxing and heavy punching forged wins over Jim
Sullivan, George Gunther and Billy Wells for various titles. A tough
lesson was given to him by African American Joe Jeanette who handed
Carpentier his first loss over 15 rounds. Carpentier rebounded however
and his first world title won at light heavyweight when he knocked out
Battling Levingsky in four rounds. A ill advised attempted saw Carpentier
out of his league as a heavyweight and he was destroyed by Jack Dempsey in
front of 80,000 people. A attempted fix was ruined when Battling Siki was
upset by Carpentier hitting him to hard! The enraged Siki knocked
Carpentier out in the sixth round and took his light heavyweight title.
After this Carpentier faded from the world boxing scene and only saw a
big fight with Gene Tunney who knocked him out in the 15th round.
another excerpt
• My innocent little item last week about the derivation of the late George Carman's nickname has become the subject of fierce controversy. I suggested that he was called Gorgeous George after the American wrestler of that name. Not so, according to an avalanche of letters, emails and phone calls, unanimous in claiming that the source was more likely to be the elegant French boxer of the first world war period, Georges Carpentier, whose memorable fight in 1921 against Jack Dempsey for the world heavyweight championship produced the first million-dollar gate. I watched a film of it recently. Carpentier, really a light-heavyweight, giving away 25lb, nearly knocked out the champion in the second round, probably broke his hand in the attempt and was then knocked out in the fourth.
Yes, he was sometimes called Gorgeous Georges (with that final "s", which, of course, Carman didn't have) though he was more often described as the Orchid Kid (or Orchid Man) from his habit of wearing the flower in his buttonhole. But, quite apart from the evidence of the extra "s", who, a decade ago, could possibly have remembered Carpentier and decided to saddle Carman with the same label? Apart, of course, from me and my angry correspondents.
Seems to me and I can only glean form what Ive read while searching that he may well have derived the name due to the fact he was a handsome fellow as the orchind man insinuates that he was was a beautiful as an orchid. if thats your thing. Could be utter bollocks though but I havent found another explanation
Record: 88-14-6 (51 K.O's)
Born: January 12, 1894 in Lens, France
Years active: 1907-1927
Nickname: The Orchid Man
This French fighter fought almost exclusively in France during his ring
career and amazingly fought in every weight class from flyweight all the
way to heavyweight. He was idolized because of his good looks and personal
flair in both France and the United States. Starting his career as a 13
year old flyweight in 1908 he improved rapidly and held his first French
title at the age of 15 at lightweight. At the age of 17 won the European
welterweight title with a 16th round knockout of Robert Eustache. His
combination of stylish boxing and heavy punching forged wins over Jim
Sullivan, George Gunther and Billy Wells for various titles. A tough
lesson was given to him by African American Joe Jeanette who handed
Carpentier his first loss over 15 rounds. Carpentier rebounded however
and his first world title won at light heavyweight when he knocked out
Battling Levingsky in four rounds. A ill advised attempted saw Carpentier
out of his league as a heavyweight and he was destroyed by Jack Dempsey in
front of 80,000 people. A attempted fix was ruined when Battling Siki was
upset by Carpentier hitting him to hard! The enraged Siki knocked
Carpentier out in the sixth round and took his light heavyweight title.
After this Carpentier faded from the world boxing scene and only saw a
big fight with Gene Tunney who knocked him out in the 15th round.
another excerpt
• My innocent little item last week about the derivation of the late George Carman's nickname has become the subject of fierce controversy. I suggested that he was called Gorgeous George after the American wrestler of that name. Not so, according to an avalanche of letters, emails and phone calls, unanimous in claiming that the source was more likely to be the elegant French boxer of the first world war period, Georges Carpentier, whose memorable fight in 1921 against Jack Dempsey for the world heavyweight championship produced the first million-dollar gate. I watched a film of it recently. Carpentier, really a light-heavyweight, giving away 25lb, nearly knocked out the champion in the second round, probably broke his hand in the attempt and was then knocked out in the fourth.
Yes, he was sometimes called Gorgeous Georges (with that final "s", which, of course, Carman didn't have) though he was more often described as the Orchid Kid (or Orchid Man) from his habit of wearing the flower in his buttonhole. But, quite apart from the evidence of the extra "s", who, a decade ago, could possibly have remembered Carpentier and decided to saddle Carman with the same label? Apart, of course, from me and my angry correspondents.
Seems to me and I can only glean form what Ive read while searching that he may well have derived the name due to the fact he was a handsome fellow as the orchind man insinuates that he was was a beautiful as an orchid. if thats your thing. Could be utter bollocks though but I havent found another explanation
Posted: 22 Jun 2004, 15:16
Top work J 
Carpentier= phony
Posted: 23 Jun 2004, 00:54
"This French fighter fought almost exclusively in France during his ring
career and amazingly fought in every weight class from flyweight all the
way to heavyweight. He was idolized because of his good looks and personal
flair in both France and the United States. Starting his career as a 13
year old flyweight in 1908 he improved rapidly and held his first French
title at the age of 15 at lightweight. At the age of 17 won the European
welterweight title with a 16th round knockout of Robert Eustache. His
combination of stylish boxing and heavy punching forged wins over Jim
Sullivan, George Gunther and Billy Wells for various titles. A tough
lesson was given to him by African American Joe Jeanette who handed
Carpentier his first loss over 15 rounds. Carpentier rebounded however
and his first world title won at light heavyweight when he knocked out
Battling Levingsky in four rounds. A ill advised attempted saw Carpentier
out of his league as a heavyweight and he was destroyed by Jack Dempsey in
front of 80,000 people. A attempted fix was ruined when Battling Siki was
upset by Carpentier hitting him to hard! The enraged Siki knocked
Carpentier out in the sixth round and took his light heavyweight title.
After this Carpentier faded from the world boxing scene and only saw a
big fight with Gene Tunney who knocked him out in the 15th round. "
There is so much wrong with this bio its not even funny: Saying Carpentier fought in every weight class from flyweight to heavyweight is a bit silly. He began boxing at 11 (not as a pro) and didnt turn professional until he was well into the welterweight/middleweight range. Many of his early wins over top notch foreign fighters such as Georges Gunther, Gunboat Smith, Harry Lewis, and Willie Lewis, were extremely controversial and had as much to do with the fights being held in Pro-Carpentier territory as it did with carpentiers ability. His win over Battling Levinsky was questioned as a dive at the time and considering it took a large sum of money top pry Levinsky from his title its definately concievable (levinsky had indeed been beaten in numerous ND matches prior to his fight with carpentier resulting in many fighters disputing Carpentiers undisputed claim to the championship). Carpentier did nail Dempsey with a good right hand in their fight but the original films of that fight were actually edited in order to replay that punch more than once and thus make Carpentier look more competetive than he was. In fact most people at the time considered the match little more than a novelty and didnt give Carp much a chance to win. Carpentier himself didnt give himself much of a chance either. He closed his training camp and when he did allow reporters to view him they reported back that the fight would be a mismatch. Rickard barred the reporters from seeing him again after that so as to preserve some of the promotion. In truth there was nothing displayed in Carpentiers earlier fights that would show him as being worthy of or having a realistic shot at the heavyweight championship. In truth he lost to the best men he faced and when he won he often deserved to lose but got the verdict because of "generous" officiating. It is stated in the above that after Dempsey, carpentier faded from the world scene. This is not true. he fought a farce of a fight against Ted Kid Lewis, managed to lose a fight he had fixed against Siki, fought Tommy Gibbons after four years of dodging him because he thought Gibbons was shot and ended up getting battered from pillar to post, he was then manhandled by Tunney as mentioned above, yet went on to fight Eddie Huffman and get a controversial draw after being battered and lose to Tommy Loughran. These were all big fights.
career and amazingly fought in every weight class from flyweight all the
way to heavyweight. He was idolized because of his good looks and personal
flair in both France and the United States. Starting his career as a 13
year old flyweight in 1908 he improved rapidly and held his first French
title at the age of 15 at lightweight. At the age of 17 won the European
welterweight title with a 16th round knockout of Robert Eustache. His
combination of stylish boxing and heavy punching forged wins over Jim
Sullivan, George Gunther and Billy Wells for various titles. A tough
lesson was given to him by African American Joe Jeanette who handed
Carpentier his first loss over 15 rounds. Carpentier rebounded however
and his first world title won at light heavyweight when he knocked out
Battling Levingsky in four rounds. A ill advised attempted saw Carpentier
out of his league as a heavyweight and he was destroyed by Jack Dempsey in
front of 80,000 people. A attempted fix was ruined when Battling Siki was
upset by Carpentier hitting him to hard! The enraged Siki knocked
Carpentier out in the sixth round and took his light heavyweight title.
After this Carpentier faded from the world boxing scene and only saw a
big fight with Gene Tunney who knocked him out in the 15th round. "
There is so much wrong with this bio its not even funny: Saying Carpentier fought in every weight class from flyweight to heavyweight is a bit silly. He began boxing at 11 (not as a pro) and didnt turn professional until he was well into the welterweight/middleweight range. Many of his early wins over top notch foreign fighters such as Georges Gunther, Gunboat Smith, Harry Lewis, and Willie Lewis, were extremely controversial and had as much to do with the fights being held in Pro-Carpentier territory as it did with carpentiers ability. His win over Battling Levinsky was questioned as a dive at the time and considering it took a large sum of money top pry Levinsky from his title its definately concievable (levinsky had indeed been beaten in numerous ND matches prior to his fight with carpentier resulting in many fighters disputing Carpentiers undisputed claim to the championship). Carpentier did nail Dempsey with a good right hand in their fight but the original films of that fight were actually edited in order to replay that punch more than once and thus make Carpentier look more competetive than he was. In fact most people at the time considered the match little more than a novelty and didnt give Carp much a chance to win. Carpentier himself didnt give himself much of a chance either. He closed his training camp and when he did allow reporters to view him they reported back that the fight would be a mismatch. Rickard barred the reporters from seeing him again after that so as to preserve some of the promotion. In truth there was nothing displayed in Carpentiers earlier fights that would show him as being worthy of or having a realistic shot at the heavyweight championship. In truth he lost to the best men he faced and when he won he often deserved to lose but got the verdict because of "generous" officiating. It is stated in the above that after Dempsey, carpentier faded from the world scene. This is not true. he fought a farce of a fight against Ted Kid Lewis, managed to lose a fight he had fixed against Siki, fought Tommy Gibbons after four years of dodging him because he thought Gibbons was shot and ended up getting battered from pillar to post, he was then manhandled by Tunney as mentioned above, yet went on to fight Eddie Huffman and get a controversial draw after being battered and lose to Tommy Loughran. These were all big fights.
Posted: 23 Jun 2004, 05:23
cheers for clarification not my words though, just off a search to find out how he got his name, as stated could be utter bollox! But interesting cheers for you post, and no worries Ian always a pleasure to help mate 
First Carpentier eurotitle
Posted: 23 Jun 2004, 10:01
Who makes history ?
Concerning the hint to the European title :
Paris, 5 May 1911, European Welterweight Championship
Aschel “Young” Joseph (England) b. Robert Eustache (France)
SOURCES : RRE, HUG85, SIG, GIU, ODD, DCS, HUG01
London, 23 October 1911, European Welterweight Championship
Georges Carpentier (France) b. Aschel “Young” Joseph (England)
SOURCES : RRE, HUG85, SIG, GIU, ODD, DCS, HUG01
Ring Record Book and Encyclopedia, 1987 (RRE)
(editor Barry HUGMAN), British Boxing Board Council Yearbook, 1985 (HUG85)
Gilbert ODD, Encyclopedia of Boxing, Hamlyn editions, 1983 (ODD)
Orlando "Rocky" GIULIANO, Storia del pugilato, Milano, Longanesi, 1982 (GIU)
Giuseppe SIGNORI, K.O., Milano, Giunti, 1978 (SIG)
(editor Barry HUGMAN), British Boxing Board Council Yearbook, 2001 (HUG01)
(Herausgegeber Walter UMMINGER), Die Chronik des Sports, Sportverlag, Heidelberg, 1992 (DCS)
Yours friendly
Gherardo
Concerning the hint to the European title :
Paris, 5 May 1911, European Welterweight Championship
Aschel “Young” Joseph (England) b. Robert Eustache (France)
SOURCES : RRE, HUG85, SIG, GIU, ODD, DCS, HUG01
London, 23 October 1911, European Welterweight Championship
Georges Carpentier (France) b. Aschel “Young” Joseph (England)
SOURCES : RRE, HUG85, SIG, GIU, ODD, DCS, HUG01
Ring Record Book and Encyclopedia, 1987 (RRE)
(editor Barry HUGMAN), British Boxing Board Council Yearbook, 1985 (HUG85)
Gilbert ODD, Encyclopedia of Boxing, Hamlyn editions, 1983 (ODD)
Orlando "Rocky" GIULIANO, Storia del pugilato, Milano, Longanesi, 1982 (GIU)
Giuseppe SIGNORI, K.O., Milano, Giunti, 1978 (SIG)
(editor Barry HUGMAN), British Boxing Board Council Yearbook, 2001 (HUG01)
(Herausgegeber Walter UMMINGER), Die Chronik des Sports, Sportverlag, Heidelberg, 1992 (DCS)
Yours friendly
Gherardo
Re: Carpentier= phony
Posted: 23 Jun 2004, 19:07
Carpentier got a lot of ink in the British Boxing trade paper of the time. Much was written about his first fight with Paul Til (15.10.09), when at the age of 15, Carpentier challenged Til for the BANTAMWEIGHT title of France. Referee Leon See scored the fight a draw after 10 rounds.klompton wrote: There is so much wrong with this bio its not even funny: Saying Carpentier fought in every weight class from flyweight to heavyweight is a bit silly. He began boxing at 11 (not as a pro) and didnt turn professional until he was well into the welterweight/middleweight range.
As this was around 12 months into his pro career and he was gaining weight rapidly, Carpentier may well have fought pro as a Flyweight (and therefore every weight class to Heavyweight).
15.10.1909 > coverage
Posted: 24 Jun 2004, 04:30
Dear Lamphey,
both BoxRec and CyberBoxing did not indicate any title at stake on 15 October 1909, then I have to check in my French sources, but the fact that Sée acted as referee is suspicious, due to his bad relationship with Paul Rousseau and Victor Breyer, the two driving forces of official French federation for boxing. You know certainly some years later Sée founded another rival French federation, before reconciling with Breyer…..
What surprised me is that the reference to “Much was written”. Did you refer to “Mirror of Life” ? I avow I did not read it, in “Sporting Life” there’s no hint to Til vs. Carpentier. Surely Til claimed a French title, but the presence of a federation eliminates the fact that the historians have to reconstruct the recognitions of titles or even re-adjust the history…..
At memory, I remember that a proper Flyweight category did not exist neither for National Sporting Club nor for French federation. Of course, there were since 1901/02 boxers who claimed the title for leighter and unestablished bodyweight classes.
Yours friendly
Gherardo
both BoxRec and CyberBoxing did not indicate any title at stake on 15 October 1909, then I have to check in my French sources, but the fact that Sée acted as referee is suspicious, due to his bad relationship with Paul Rousseau and Victor Breyer, the two driving forces of official French federation for boxing. You know certainly some years later Sée founded another rival French federation, before reconciling with Breyer…..
What surprised me is that the reference to “Much was written”. Did you refer to “Mirror of Life” ? I avow I did not read it, in “Sporting Life” there’s no hint to Til vs. Carpentier. Surely Til claimed a French title, but the presence of a federation eliminates the fact that the historians have to reconstruct the recognitions of titles or even re-adjust the history…..
At memory, I remember that a proper Flyweight category did not exist neither for National Sporting Club nor for French federation. Of course, there were since 1901/02 boxers who claimed the title for leighter and unestablished bodyweight classes.
Yours friendly
Gherardo
Posted: 24 Jun 2004, 04:59
Gherardo, the source I'm referring to is "Boxing", the weekly paper which is now called "Boxing News".
They had a "Parisian News" section every week. The Carpentier-Til bout was mentioned for a few weeks leading up to the time of the bout.
Perhaps I should have said he may have fought below 112lbs (what we today recognise as Flyweight).
They had a "Parisian News" section every week. The Carpentier-Til bout was mentioned for a few weeks leading up to the time of the bout.
Perhaps I should have said he may have fought below 112lbs (what we today recognise as Flyweight).
Posted: 24 Jun 2004, 05:03
Gherardo, another thing. I did notice another Til-Carpentier bout in 1909 reported in "Boxing" which is not listed on Boxrec or CBZ.
Carpentier at 51 kilos
Posted: 24 Jun 2004, 05:52
Dear Lamphey,
congratulations for your search ! It is always a commedable attitude to investigate in primary sources even in contrast with cemented printed books, almanacks, annuals, etc....
Considering that CBZ and BoxRec reported also the bout of 22 December, do you mean that Carpentier and Til matched a third bout long the year 1909 ? Could you be so kind to state when and where the bout took place ? Thanks in advance.
Consequently, Carpentier fought at 51 kilos......wow......
Yours friendly
Gherardo
congratulations for your search ! It is always a commedable attitude to investigate in primary sources even in contrast with cemented printed books, almanacks, annuals, etc....
Considering that CBZ and BoxRec reported also the bout of 22 December, do you mean that Carpentier and Til matched a third bout long the year 1909 ? Could you be so kind to state when and where the bout took place ? Thanks in advance.
Consequently, Carpentier fought at 51 kilos......wow......
Yours friendly
Gherardo
Posted: 24 Jun 2004, 16:25
Gherardo, the December 11, 1909 issue of "Boxing" carries the following passage:
"The clever little bantam, Georges Carpentier, met Paul Til at Lille in a 20 x 2min contest. At the 8th meeting Carpentier dropped on an injured knee and retired from the fray, leaving Til winner. Carpentier damaged his knee when jumping from the ring after his recent victory over Ledoux. I saw the mishap, so there is no blarney."
No date is given but the bout must have occurred between the Ledoux and Gaillard dates. Presumably on December 1, 1909.
"The clever little bantam, Georges Carpentier, met Paul Til at Lille in a 20 x 2min contest. At the 8th meeting Carpentier dropped on an injured knee and retired from the fray, leaving Til winner. Carpentier damaged his knee when jumping from the ring after his recent victory over Ledoux. I saw the mishap, so there is no blarney."
No date is given but the bout must have occurred between the Ledoux and Gaillard dates. Presumably on December 1, 1909.
siki
Posted: 25 Jun 2004, 18:54
my knowlege of him is mostly to do with the Siki fiasco. When Carpentier retired he ran a cafe in paris and i would have loved to see his face if the madcap Siki would have turned up asking for a drink.
Siki "remember that money for the fix how about a few drinks on credit"
"Oh god why me" said George
God replied " I need a good laugh and your it"
Siki "remember that money for the fix how about a few drinks on credit"
"Oh god why me" said George
God replied " I need a good laugh and your it"
Re: siki
Posted: 26 Jun 2004, 06:28
Seeing as Siki was long since dead by this time, I would have loved to see Carpentier's face if Siki had turned up asking for a drink!robert.snell1 wrote:
When Carpentier retired he ran a cafe in paris and i would have loved to see his face if the madcap Siki would have turned up asking for a drink.