BoxRec

I've often wondered this question.

If you were to apply the Dr Ericsson theory of 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to boxing, how far could an average person go?

Consider a classroom of 20 x regular 13 year old lads of varying weights and athletic abilities. Stick them all in a gym with a world class trainer and matchmaking, ignore ticket selling / promotional factors, and how far would the average lad go over the next 10-15 years assuming he sticks to the task?

Applying this to football and my shot in the dark guess would be that the average lad would be capable of playing for a league 2 football side, at the very least. But of course in football there are a lot more playing it, and so the talent pool is a lot deeper.

How do you think these lads would fare in boxing? Do you think it would be possible to have multiple British title holders from that group of lads given the more shallow talent pool and lack of universal access to world class trainers and facilities?

The Flintoff debacle was interesting in that it highlighted the fact that a professional athlete from another field would not necessarily be able to move across to boxing and pass as any more than a novice, despite having those trainers/facilities - certainly not through a single camp anyway.

Does success in boxing come from being a natural, or can a regular guy who is prepared to graft go a long way? (assuming he has loads of mates willing to buy tickets to his fights). And is Buglioni a good example of this?

Almost every elite athlete in the world has started competing from a very young age, - it is well known that neural pathways which aid the excellence in every sport, are laid down much more readily at a young age - so the example of flintoff is a bad one, it's also a bad one, as he was already at an advanced age, and competing in a sport which is far more physically demanding - was always up against it anyway, and might not have had the correct physical makeup for boxing anyway.

I'd say boxing is no more and no less difficult than any other sport - to excel in any sport requires extreme dedication and talent, no matter what field.

Like any sport, it is a combination of genetics, environment, and practice.

Technically you can achieve a decent standard. Practice will enhance the physical attributes.

So being able to throw a good jab or a hit a shot like ronaldo. But you can't teach the mental aspects.

What sets floyd apart isn't his punching it his ability to see punches and react to them. His reflexes are incredible.

The same goes in football. The difference between a Saturday amateur player, a legue 2 player and a premier league player is the ability to produce consistently. I played football up to a level below what's required to enter te FA cup. And have seen players with skills that confuse the life out of you. But stick them in a game and they can't cope because they don't read the game.

With any physical sport that has equally mental aspect I think the 10000 hr rule is less applicable.
Sports such as golf which is an action repeated over and over, or chess which is purely tactical and understanding. Id say the chances are higher.

Without going into too much detail, i believe Boxing and MMA are the toughest sports in the world as it's one on one, no equipment advantages and you have to be incredibly fit, tough, skilled and determined or if you lack the skill, make up for it with a freakish chin, heart, stamina etc.

You can be a footballer by just being fast with a basic level of technique, an American footballer by just being huge, a basketballer by being freakishly tall but not that good (Tall Paul from Loughborough is the perfect example). Also sports like Golf require extreme levels of skill but little fitness.

As the saying goes, you don't play boxing. Too tough.

danamba7 wrote:Without going into too much detail, i believe Boxing and MMA are the toughest sports in the world as it's one on one, no equipment advantages and you have to be incredibly fit, tough, skilled and determined or if you lack the skill, make up for it with a freakish chin, heart, stamina etc.

You can be a footballer by just being fast with a basic level of technique, an American footballer by just being huge, a basketballer by being freakishly tall but not that good (Tall Paul from Loughborough is the perfect example). Also sports like Golf require extreme levels of skill but little fitness.

As the saying goes, you don't play boxing. Too tough.

Marlo Stanfield wrote:

danamba7 wrote:Without going into too much detail, i believe Boxing and MMA are the toughest sports in the world as it's one on one, no equipment advantages and you have to be incredibly fit, tough, skilled and determined or if you lack the skill, make up for it with a freakish chin, heart, stamina etc.

You can be a footballer by just being fast with a basic level of technique, an American footballer by just being huge, a basketballer by being freakishly tall but not that good (Tall Paul from Loughborough is the perfect example). Also sports like Golf require extreme levels of skill but little fitness.

As the saying goes, you don't play boxing. Too tough.

Hilarious - that's right, the top level footballers are just sprinters who knock the ball forward.

A lot of those 220+ pound American footballers - can run 100 yards in a little over 10 seconds - they also have to have lots of tactical awareness.

Boxing is no harder to excel at than any other sport.

Having had the misfortune of spending the entire last football season watching Kenwynne Jones (weekly salary .c.45k) stroll around aimlessly the pitch & consistently fail to control the ball, I'd say football is a lot easier to succeed in than most other sports.
In fact, I remember reading an article by Danny Murphy which said that the number of genuinely good footballers in the Premier League is actually extremely low.

That's the big difference between team sports & boxing - there's no hiding place in a boxing ring. No teammates to support you or hide your shortcomings. Just you and an opponent who's trying to punch you hard in the face.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Marlo Stanfield wrote:

danamba7 wrote:Without going into too much detail, i believe Boxing and MMA are the toughest sports in the world as it's one on one, no equipment advantages and you have to be incredibly fit, tough, skilled and determined or if you lack the skill, make up for it with a freakish chin, heart, stamina etc.

You can be a footballer by just being fast with a basic level of technique, an American footballer by just being huge, a basketballer by being freakishly tall but not that good (Tall Paul from Loughborough is the perfect example). Also sports like Golf require extreme levels of skill but little fitness.

As the saying goes, you don't play boxing. Too tough.

Hilarious - that's right, the top level footballers are just sprinters who knock the ball forward.

A lot of those 220+ pound American footballers - can run 100 yards in a little over 10 seconds - they also have to have lots of tactical awareness.

Boxing is no harder to excel at than any other sport.

Wo wo wo, I didn't say top level did I? I also didn't say all footballers. I've been following and playing football since I was 5. You really do not need to be highly skilled to be a pro. There are defenders who are big and strong with little technique and wingers who are mainly fast and can cross a ball. I mean Jesus Christ, City paid over £30 mil for Managla last year and he has extremely poor technique. Yes he may be big and strong and know how to keep in line with his back 4 but he is not skilled.

And I'm surprised you're defending Grid Iron where some "athletes" get paid tens of thousands to block people from running. You say tactical awareness, how long do you really think that would take to pick up? Quarterbacks and receivers are very skilled however.

Boxerbeetle wrote:Having had the misfortune of spending the entire last football season watching Kenwynne Jones (weekly salary .c.45k) stroll around aimlessly the pitch & consistently fail to control the ball, I'd say football is a lot easier to succeed in than most other sports.
In fact, I remember reading an article by Danny Murphy which said that the number of genuinely good footballers in the Premier League is actually extremely low.

That's the big difference between team sports & boxing - there's no hiding place in a boxing ring. No teammates to support you or hide your shortcomings. Just you and an opponent who's trying to punch you hard in the face.

Exactly. Thought I was going out my mind then with those replies to my original post.

You can also have a long run of poor games and be rescued by the 10 other players on the pitch and still get played and still pick up your over inflated pay packet. You cannot get away with that shite in boxing. You have a bad night at a high level and you're getting KO'd or badly hurt.

Sorry for multiple posts, my heads gone

danamba7 wrote:
And I'm surprised you're defending Grid Iron where some "athletes" get paid tens of thousands to block people from running. You say tactical awareness, how long do you really think that would take to pick up? .

longer than you might think, otherwise knowing who the best offensive lineman is, would be very simple, the biggest guy with the quickest feet. intelligence and decision making are a big part of being an OL. stupid linemen give away penalties which can hugely affect their teams. smart linemen- the best in the NFL- are at least partially judged on the penalties they (don't) give away.

It has to be at least one of the toughest, if not the toughest.
Particularly from a financial standpoint, where a modest level of boxer lacking financial support will have to work full time to pay the bills while fitting in training in his spare time.
In most other major sports you earn enough for you to be able to concentrate on your craft 100%.
For example; in League one, the average wage is approx. 70000 a year.
Also British no. 4 tennis player James Ward has earned close to £100000 in prize money alone, throughout his career.

beetle kindof alluded to this earlier. boxing (/MMA etc) is the sport where a mistake means you get punched in the face, which has to set it apart at least somewhat, in my view

keirw wrote:It has to be at least one of the toughest, if not the toughest.
Particularly from a financial standpoint, where a modest level of boxer lacking financial support will have to work full time to pay the bills while fitting in training in his spare time.
In most other major sports you earn enough for you to be able to concentrate on your craft 100%.
For example; in League one, the average wage is approx. 70000 a year.
Also British no. 4 tennis player James Ward has earned close to £100000 in prize money alone, throughout his career.

That's not a great deal, he's been a pro 5 years, that's 20k a year. Unless you meant to add a zero to that.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

keirw wrote:It has to be at least one of the toughest, if not the toughest.
Particularly from a financial standpoint, where a modest level of boxer lacking financial support will have to work full time to pay the bills while fitting in training in his spare time.
In most other major sports you earn enough for you to be able to concentrate on your craft 100%.
For example; in League one, the average wage is approx. 70000 a year.
Also British no. 4 tennis player James Ward has earned close to £100000 in prize money alone, throughout his career.

That's not a great deal, he's been a pro 5 years, that's 20k a year. Unless you meant to add a zero to that.

You did.

He's earned 975,000 USD, so roughly 640,000 GBP- he actually turned pro in 2009, that's 100 K a year. Which is ok, but you'd earn more working in the city.

Boxing's problem is there's so many competitors overall, and therefore a lot of fights to spread the money across.

There's only a few hundred tennis professionals worldwide in each category, Ward is in the top 100, so he's the top 20% of his profession. He's not mediocre being in the top 100.

It's not the same as being in the top 100 in a division in boxing.

There's quite a good breakdown of the demands of high level boxing compared to other sports in the book 'Black Lights'.

Technically I think it would be far far easier to pick up the skills needed to compete and survive in boxing than in football. How many footballers never kicked a ball until they were in their late teens and then went on to be a good pro? I would guess none- where as there are many elite boxers who didn't lace a glove until their late teens but wen on to win world championships. If you hadn't kicked a ball until the age of 8 or 9 you probably have no chance of ever being good enough to not look like a total mug in a junior game.

If you have athletic gifts- strength, power, speed, quick reflexes then you can turn someone into a boxer at a decent level if they have the heart and dedication. That would not be possible in a technical sport like football.

Where boxing is on a different level to football is in heart, bottle, fitness, dedication, mental toughness.

I would think MMA is more difficult, having to specialise in boxing, Muay Thai, Bjj and wrestling, so many more ways to lose, weakness in 1 of those 4 results in a painful defeat, a smack on the nose with those gloves is going to register as well

Supremo wrote:Technically I think it would be far far easier to pick up the skills needed to compete and survive in boxing than in football. How many footballers never kicked a ball until they were in their late teens and then went on to be a good pro? I would guess none- where as there are many elite boxers who didn't lace a glove until their late teens but wen on to win world championships. If you hadn't kicked a ball until the age of 8 or 9 you probably have no chance of ever being good enough to not look like a total mug in a junior game.

If you have athletic gifts- strength, power, speed, quick reflexes then you can turn someone into a boxer at a decent level if they have the heart and dedication. That would not be possible in a technical sport like football.

Where boxing is on a different level to football is in heart, bottle, fitness, dedication, mental toughness.

What is the process for becoming a pro footballer? If someone is very talented but doesn't start playing until they're a late teen how do they go about joining a pro club?

They would need to join an amateur team and if they were good enough to sign pro word would get about and a club would sign them. I would seriously doubt if any pro footballer had taken the game up late though- for that reason I don't believe that the level of skill required to compete in boxing is equivalent to football.
You could take up boxing in your mid 20s and with enough hard work fight at a decent level of amateur and even lower pro ranks. If you started playing football in your mid 20s and a few years later got stuck into a pub league match you would get laughed off the park.

That said, at the level Mayweather is at he has as much talent and technical ability as Lionel Messi.

You did.

He's earned 975,000 USD, so roughly 640,000 GBP- he actually turned pro in 2009, that's 100 K a year. Which is ok, but you'd earn more working in the city.

Boxing's problem is there's so many competitors overall, and therefore a lot of fights to spread the money across.

There's only a few hundred tennis professionals worldwide in each category, Ward is in the top 100, so he's the top 20% of his profession. He's not mediocre being in the top 100.

It's not the same as being in the top 100 in a division in boxing.[/quote]

"you'd earn more in the city" ????????????????????? what a silly thing to say - why not say "you'd earn more as a top level film actor" or "top lawyers earn more than that" daft thing to say, james

boxing is far harder than football - the skill level has dropped woefully in football, whilst the fitness and reliance on speed has risen sharply

There are few things that differentiate boxing from other sports. Obvious one is punch resistance, which no amount of practice hours can alter. Other is fighting spirit, because been in a fight is very different from playing football. If you dont have those its hard to achieve professional levels. Other then that I guess it is the same as the other sports.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Marlo Stanfield wrote:

danamba7 wrote:Without going into too much detail, i believe Boxing and MMA are the toughest sports in the world as it's one on one, no equipment advantages and you have to be incredibly fit, tough, skilled and determined or if you lack the skill, make up for it with a freakish chin, heart, stamina etc.

You can be a footballer by just being fast with a basic level of technique, an American footballer by just being huge, a basketballer by being freakishly tall but not that good (Tall Paul from Loughborough is the perfect example). Also sports like Golf require extreme levels of skill but little fitness.

As the saying goes, you don't play boxing. Too tough.

Hilarious - that's right, the top level footballers are just sprinters who knock the ball forward.

A lot of those 220+ pound American footballers - can run 100 yards in a little over 10 seconds - they also have to have lots of tactical awareness.

Boxing is no harder to excel at than any other sport.

Agree. Not entirely unexpected to see boxing at the top on this forum. MMA reads like an afterthought whilst typing boxing. How many sports did you stop to consider?
I think it is a fair comment, probably, to say that some sports contain more 'nuances' than others...or they have 'more going on' to put it another way. I'll give you an example - a Judo player probably has more skill-sets (ouch I hate that corporate bs word) than say a weight-lifter.
However, if you look across the board I'll bet they all train roughly the same number of hours in a week.

Also, to play Devil's Advocat - Tennis is a FAR harder sport to master than boxing. When I was as old as my early 20s I'd turn up to the amateur boxing club and I'd have to pay a quid, one pound! And they never exactly chased me for it either. You get me?

I think what sets boxing apart is that you have to take punishment. For a lot of people no amount of training will make them more readily able to take it. Just not in their makeup.

Just saw the Tarkus post. Basically I agree.

Yeah, runners, triathletes, cyclists, squash players- they don't take punishment. Not enough saw dust on the floor or buckets to spit in. Big fairies.
Anyone who thinks boxing has the monopoly on toughness is....ill-informed imo.