BoxRec

That Hagler/Jones thread got me thinking. If Jones had retired at 34 (not unusual for boxers). He'd have finished with a record of 49-1 with a one dq loss and wins over both Toney and Hopkins, plus multiple belts. He'd be a shoe in for an all time top 10 p4p with a lot of people I'd say. Of course people would always say that he hardly fought any big names (other than the 2 I mentioned) but his record would be there for all to see and ofc the longer Hopkins goes on, the better jones looks.

So, should we discount his record from his mid 30s onwards like we do with other great fighters and pretty much ignore all those late career losses to inferiors? If we do Jones is well up there. However, if we don't and count all those ko losses, his rep is severely tainted.

So, is he top 10 of all time or was it just he didn't fight anyone good and his chin got found out?

Ignore everything after Tarver and he's not top 10 or even close.

Ezzard wrote:Ignore everything after Tarver and he's not top 10 or even close.

This. Not remotely close to a strong enough resume for such a high ranking.

Fighting policemen and school teachers doesn't get Super Roy nowhere. He wasted his time and his prime fighting BIG BUMS.

Neither, not enough big wins and he was a drug cheat, so he doesn't make the top anything in boxing history.

expe wrote:Neither, not enough big wins and he was a drug cheat, so he doesn't make the top anything in boxing history.

I wonder with the recent revelation about Olympic athletes blood tests, how many drug cheats there really are out there......And do the promoters /commissions really care!

Definitely not top 10, pre Tarver or not.

He was supremely gifted & one of the most athletic boxers ever, but his resume pre Tarver is not sufficient to put him in the top 10, IMHO.

expe wrote:Neither, not enough big wins and he was a drug cheat, so he doesn't make the top anything in boxing history.

Top 10 in terms of his resume? No.

Top 10 in terms of ability? In my opinion, yes.

Say what you want about who he fought, holding world titles at Middleweight, Super Middleweight, 6 at one time at Light Heavyweight and a title at Heavyweight is an unbelievable achievement. I don't think Roy gets the credit he deserves for that.

ElJefe wrote:Top 10 in terms of his resume? No.

Top 10 in terms of ability? In my opinion, yes.

Say what you want about who he fought, holding world titles at Middleweight, Super Middleweight, 6 at one time at Light Heavyweight and a title at Heavyweight is an unbelievable achievement. I don't think Roy gets the credit he deserves for that.

That's because he fought policemen and school teachers. He is not even a top 10 light-heavyweight in some people's rankings. How could he be top 10 atg p4p?

ElJefe wrote:Top 10 in terms of his resume? No.

Top 10 in terms of ability? In my opinion, yes.

Say what you want about who he fought, holding world titles at Middleweight, Super Middleweight, 6 at one time at Light Heavyweight and a title at Heavyweight is an unbelievable achievement. I don't think Roy gets the credit he deserves for that.

WBS titles don't mean a lot. Who you beat does.

Like I have said before: When it comes to pure natural and gifted talent, the great Roy Jones, Jr alone with that makes the top five. I remember seeing him for the first time, I said, OMG!, where this guy came from? It was the '88 Olympics where he unjustly got snubbed.

I have never seen a fighter with a RARE COMBINATION OF SPEED AND POWER going up in weight. His REFLEXES were second to none. I have never seen that. Usually, a fighter going up into another weight class loses his speed, his reflexes and in some cases, his punching power. Super Roy had the SAME SPEED, the SAME POWER and REFLEXES at 154lbs as in light-heavyweight. The thing was, he never showed those attributes with some good fighters that I wanted to see him tangle with: Nigel Benn, Gerald McClellan, Julian Jackson, Michael Nunn, Steve Collins and Dariuz Michaelchewski. It was a BIG SHAME he didn't fight at least three of them.

elmersalsa wrote:Like I have said before: When it comes to pure natural and gifted talent, the great Roy Jones, Jr alone with that makes the top five. I remember seeing him for the first time, I said, OMG!, where this guy came from? It was the '88 Olympics where he unjustly got snubbed.

I have never seen a fighter with a RARE COMBINATION OF SPEED AND POWER going up in weight. His REFLEXES were second to none. I have never seen that. Usually, a fighter going up into another weight class loses his speed, his reflexes and in some cases, his punching power. Super Roy had the SAME SPEED, the SAME POWER and REFLEXES at 154lbs as in light-heavyweight. The thing was, he never showed those attributes with some good fighters that I wanted to see him tangle with: Nigel Benn, Gerald McClellan, Julian Jackson, Michael Nunn, Steve Collins and Dariuz Michaelchewski. It was a BIG SHAME he didn't fight at least three of them.

Off the top of my head, Benn wanted nothing to do with him, McClellan obviously we know what happened there, Steve Collins I think was actually scheduled to fight him but pulled out because he blacked out in sparring. Didn't Nunn end up in jail or was that after he retired?

Ambling Alp II wrote:

ElJefe wrote:Top 10 in terms of his resume? No.

Top 10 in terms of ability? In my opinion, yes.

Say what you want about who he fought, holding world titles at Middleweight, Super Middleweight, 6 at one time at Light Heavyweight and a title at Heavyweight is an unbelievable achievement. I don't think Roy gets the credit he deserves for that.

WBS titles don't mean a lot. Who you beat does.

Fair point about the titles. Still incredibly dominant though.

elmersalsa wrote:

ElJefe wrote:Top 10 in terms of his resume? No.

Top 10 in terms of ability? In my opinion, yes.

Say what you want about who he fought, holding world titles at Middleweight, Super Middleweight, 6 at one time at Light Heavyweight and a title at Heavyweight is an unbelievable achievement. I don't think Roy gets the credit he deserves for that.

That's because he fought policemen and school teachers. He is not even a top 10 light-heavyweight in some people's rankings. How could he be top 10 atg p4p?

What's your point? Just because other people wouldn't have him as a top 10 LHW (some people would be wrong, by the way), doesn't mean I can't have him as an all time great. That comment is just completely irrelevant to how I rate Roy.

Anyway, I'd already made it clear that if I was to have him as a top 10 p4p it'd be based on ability rather than resume, so I'm not sure why you insist on trotting out this "policemen and school teachers" line. James Toney and Bernard Hopkins aren't bad names to have on a record that only consisted of policemen and school teachers like you'd have people believe.

Whatever yo, it doesn't matter, it is what it is. Super Roy is not a top 50 atg. If he's in your view, fine. Come with a better argument, El Jefe.

ElJefe wrote:Top 10 in terms of his resume? No.

Top 10 in terms of ability? In my opinion, yes.

Say what you want about who he fought, holding world titles at Middleweight, Super Middleweight, 6 at one time at Light Heavyweight and a title at Heavyweight is an unbelievable achievement. I don't think Roy gets the credit he deserves for that.

Jones winning a paper belt vs Ruiz to me means extremely little . . .I give Mickey Walker more credit for beating Uzcudun.

elmersalsa wrote:Whatever yo, it doesn't matter, it is what it is. Super Roy is not a top 50 atg. If he's in your view, fine. Come with a better argument, El Jefe.

I'm not bothered about coming back with a better argument, I know lots of people don't rate Roy as highly as me, I don't care. Judging by his resume I can see why, but it's not crazy to think that someone that was able to beat the likes of Toney and Hopkins so comfortably could have done the same to other great middleweights. Obviously he didn't prove it as much as the likes of Hagler by fighting as many top opponents, that's why I said I rate him that highly on his ability, which, in my opinion, was incredible.

What the great Bob Fitzsimmons did to James J. Corbett was way more impressive than what Super Roy did versus John"The Quiet Man" Ruiz.

ElJefe wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:Whatever yo, it doesn't matter, it is what it is. Super Roy is not a top 50 atg. If he's in your view, fine. Come with a better argument, El Jefe.

I'm not bothered about coming back with a better argument, I know lots of people don't rate Roy as highly as me, I don't care. Judging by his resume I can see why, but it's not crazy to think that someone that was able to beat the likes of Toney and Hopkins so comfortably could have done the same to other great middleweights. Obviously he didn't prove it as much as the likes of Hagler by fighting as many top opponents, that's why I said I rate him that highly on his ability, which, in my opinion, was incredible.

I agree with most of what you said here except about Hopkins. That was a competitive fight and Hopkins had not quite reached his best. At the time it really did not seem like that important fight because Hopkins was not that well known yet.

Like many people I was disappointed that Jones had so much talent but was not willing to take on tough opponents. In particular, some of the opponents he fought at light heavy were really bad.

Ultimately, I think you should mainly rate a fighter on what he accomplished did against elite competition. Some guys who we regard as talented don't look so great when they take on someone really good. Since Jones was so rarely willing to take on the cream of the crop, I don't think he can be rated that highly. He doesn't deserve to be in the Top 50.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

ElJefe wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:Whatever yo, it doesn't matter, it is what it is. Super Roy is not a top 50 atg. If he's in your view, fine. Come with a better argument, El Jefe.

I'm not bothered about coming back with a better argument, I know lots of people don't rate Roy as highly as me, I don't care. Judging by his resume I can see why, but it's not crazy to think that someone that was able to beat the likes of Toney and Hopkins so comfortably could have done the same to other great middleweights. Obviously he didn't prove it as much as the likes of Hagler by fighting as many top opponents, that's why I said I rate him that highly on his ability, which, in my opinion, was incredible.

I agree with most of what you said here except about Hopkins. That was a competitive fight and Hopkins had not quite reached his best. At the time it really did not seem like that important fight because Hopkins was not that well known yet.

Like many people I was disappointed that Jones had so much talent but was not willing to take on tough opponents. In particular, some of the opponents he fought at light heavy were really bad.

Ultimately, I think you should mainly rate a fighter on what he accomplished did against elite competition. Some guys who we regard as talented don't look so great when they take on someone really good. Since Jones was so rarely willing to take on the cream of the crop, I don't think he can be rated that highly. He doesn't deserve to be in the Top 50.

I admit Hopkins was not in his prime, but still nobody else beat him that clearly until Kovalev 21 years later. A fight between Roy and Hopkins around 2000 would have been brilliant.

It could have been. And once again with Jones, it did not happen. He was too reluctant to take a risk against a great opponent, and that is his legacy. The true greats were willing to test themselves against the best.

Cracking the top 10 truly takes an extraordinary career and while Roy Jones was an exceptionally good fighter, I don't know if his resume warrants making that cut. Probably the biggest thing that hurts him was the fact that the Darius Michalczewski fight never came off. That said he was otherwise awesome. Ring Magazine had him in their top 10 p4p for about 12 years and through a fairly talented era. He fought in six weight classes and won titles in four of them. He boasts wins over James Toney, Bernard Hopkins, and Virgil Hill who are all either in the hall of fame or heading there very soon.