BoxRec

What if Foreman had won in Zaire?....would Ali have retired?

It wouldn't have been implausible had he beaten Ali that he could've reigned until running into Holmes, and no I don't think Ali would of retired.

Interesting one.....even if George had beaten seven shades of excrement out of Ali, which many people feared/predicted might happen, then I still don't see Ali quitting and certainly returning at some future point.

Thomas Hauser's book which is possibly the best work on Ali's character traits and also what his life was like....makes it really clear that Ali had enormous self-confidence in himself when it came to boxing and was utterly courageous as well. So he may well have viewed getting tonked by Foreman as an aberration that could be reversed and would not have been afraid to go again.

And it was that exact same self-belief that turned Liston's head inside out and unsettled Foreman pre-fight and allowed Ali to employ a gameplan that looked like pure insanity.

Hauser also underlines the fact that whilst Ali was the master of his own destiny when the bell rang....he had this enormous group of camp followers and supposed gurus around him who he felt responsible for providing for and they in turn took full advantage of his natural good nature.

It took him a long, long time for him to get shot of these people - too long - and they would have undoubtedly applied the pressure for Ali to fight again. He was their breadwinner and they were all over his life; literally living in his home.

Every-one would have retired

ade the grenade wrote:What if Foreman had won in Zaire?....would Ali have retired?

No more than he retired after Norton beat him and broke his jaw in the process only a year and a half earlier.

No. Ali would have wanted another crack at George if he'd lost. Even if George had beaten him badly.

There may never have been a lean, mean grilling machine.

Cutman Scabbers wrote:There may never have been a lean, mean grilling machine.

George has always maintained he made more out of the George Foreman grill than he did in the boxing ring. Perhaps a win over Ali in Zaire would have meant he'd be less wealthy now?

Ali wouldn't have retired.

Ali's ego was too large & there was too much money associated with him that the leeches around him wouldn't have allowed it.

He was past his best in '74, but he was still formidable & would have had the measure of anyone else in the division at that time.

If Foreman had won,no doubt his next title defense would have been Joe Bugner.
(Foreman seemed a little obcessed with fighting Bugner after the Frazier vrs Bugner contest).
The question is would Bugner have accepted the challange?

ade the grenade wrote:What if Foreman had won in Zaire?....would Ali have retired?

I don't think Foreman would have left Africa alive if he won in Zaire! Imagine the riot if he had won

Joe Bugner would have outpointed Foreman. George would come into the ring over confident, with dodgy stamina and would be thrown out of his game when Bugner gets past the first few rounds. Bugner wins the last nine rounds and wins on points.

keithmoonhangover wrote:Joe Bugner would have outpointed Foreman. George would come into the ring over confident, with dodgy stamina and would be thrown out of his game when Bugner gets past the first few rounds. Bugner wins the last nine rounds and wins on points.

Got to love Bugner his record is quality! Don't think he would beat Foreman though.

If Foreman had won,no doubt his next title defense would have been Joe Bugner.
(Foreman seemed a little obcessed with fighting Bugner after the Frazier vrs Bugner contest).
The question is would Bugner have accepted the challange?

Pretty sure Joe would have taken it to be honest....he had his faults/shortcomings....but he dodged no man as far as I can recall and had that underlying confidence in his size, strength, technique and experience to compete in the ring with the best.

We are talking about a big, mobile guy with sound boxing skills and who had all ready seen a great many big, scary dudes in the ring.

With Joe it always comes back to the same old bete noire; a consistent/heavy punch that could trouble the elite when he was in his prime and the fact that he boxed when the best men were truly outstanding.

Every time I look at Joe's career I come up with the same observation....we genuinely are looking at one of the best and most talented guys never to win a portion of the HW crown.

Caractacus wrote:If Foreman had won,no doubt his next title defense would have been Joe Bugner.
(Foreman seemed a little obcessed with fighting Bugner after the Frazier vrs Bugner contest).
The question is would Bugner have accepted the challange?

I've just finished reading Bugner's book and in it he claims he challenged George - well after when you were referring to above. But George simply explained to Joe how much he'd made out of the grill and how much easier those dollars were to make than stepping into the ring.

Bodyshot3 wrote:

If Foreman had won,no doubt his next title defense would have been Joe Bugner.
(Foreman seemed a little obcessed with fighting Bugner after the Frazier vrs Bugner contest).
The question is would Bugner have accepted the challange?

Pretty sure Joe would have taken it to be honest....he had his faults/shortcomings....but he dodged no man as far as I can recall and had that underlying confidence in his size, strength, technique and experience to compete in the ring with the best.

We are talking about a big, mobile guy with sound boxing skills and who had all ready seen a great many big, scary dudes in the ring.

With Joe it always comes back to the same old bete noire; a consistent/heavy punch that could trouble the elite when he was in his prime and the fact that he boxed when the best men were truly outstanding.

Every time I look at Joe's career I come up with the same observation....we genuinely are looking at one of the best and most talented guys never to win a portion of the HW crown.

I agree with all of that. But I think George would have whopped Joe, like he did most others.

I agree with all of that. But I think George would have whopped Joe, like he did most others.

Agreed as well....Joe was no ducker.

I think the Foreman fight would have gone the distance though, Joe was as strong as an ox but also had the nous/technique not to put himself in harm's way either and that suggests a possibly quite boring 15-round decision for George. Maybe with Joe nicking a round here and there.

Have always liked Bugner but history was not on Joe's side...at least 5 ATG's operating at the same time...made it very hard for him indeed.

Bodyshot3 wrote:

I agree with all of that. But I think George would have whopped Joe, like he did most others.

Agreed as well....Joe was no ducker.

I think the Foreman fight would have gone the distance though, Joe was as strong as an ox but also had the nous/technique not to put himself in harm's way either and that suggests a possibly quite boring 15-round decision for George. Maybe with Joe nicking a round here and there.

Have always liked Bugner but history was not on Joe's side...at least 5 ATG's operating at the same time...made it very hard for him indeed.

In a different era Joe would have fared better. He did at one stage manage to reach #4 though.

If Foreman had won in Zaire, we probably would have seen Foreman vs. Holmes.

keithmoonhangover wrote:Joe Bugner would have outpointed Foreman. George would come into the ring over confident, with dodgy stamina and would be thrown out of his game when Bugner gets past the first few rounds. Bugner wins the last nine rounds and wins on points.

I'm not entirely sure there would have been a "last nine rounds".

Foreman of '74-'75 would have dealt out some very serious punishment, at least early.

Bodyshot3 wrote:

If Foreman had won,no doubt his next title defense would have been Joe Bugner.
(Foreman seemed a little obcessed with fighting Bugner after the Frazier vrs Bugner contest).
The question is would Bugner have accepted the challange?

Pretty sure Joe would have taken it to be honest....he had his faults/shortcomings....but he dodged no man as far as I can recall and had that underlying confidence in his size, strength, technique and experience to compete in the ring with the best.

We are talking about a big, mobile guy with sound boxing skills and who had all ready seen a great many big, scary dudes in the ring.

With Joe it always comes back to the same old bete noire; a consistent/heavy punch that could trouble the elite when he was in his prime and the fact that he boxed when the best men were truly outstanding.

Every time I look at Joe's career I come up with the same observation....we genuinely are looking at one of the best and most talented guys never to win a portion of the HW crown.

Wow, you are impressed with Bugner.

Makes me feel the Frazier win over Bugner was better than I originally thought.

delete-duplicate post.

yancey wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:Joe Bugner would have outpointed Foreman. George would come into the ring over confident, with dodgy stamina and would be thrown out of his game when Bugner gets past the first few rounds. Bugner wins the last nine rounds and wins on points.

I'm not entirely sure there would have been a "last nine rounds".

Foreman of '74-'75 would have dealt out some very serious punishment, at least early.

Prime Bugner was a superb defensive fighter. Foreman's invincibility was built on two fights. He looked beatable before he was champion. An aging Ali exposed him. No reason a savvy Bugner couldn't do the same. Styles make fights.

@Yancey.....I saw Joe, properly well, well past his prime give Bruno a few tidy rounds and actually bull Bruno backwards and upset Frank a bit with his fast hands and by blocking Frank.

Bruno was much too young and strong on the night and Joe faded....but the way Joe started always got me thinking about what Bugner was like in his true prime and how useful he must have been. I think he accepted that Frazier was the better man but he was never embarassed by Ali and Ron Lyle got a night he would never forget.

Another era - almost certainly the up and down 80s...and Joe would have nabbed a belt.

if foreman won in zaire he probably would have been the champion till around 78 when larry holmes really started to shine in the first earnie shavers bout .

keithmoonhangover wrote:Joe Bugner would have outpointed Foreman. George would come into the ring over confident, with dodgy stamina and would be thrown out of his game when Bugner gets past the first few rounds. Bugner wins the last nine rounds and wins on points.

nah man , i like bugner he was a tough dude no doubt ,but had no punch and was far from an ali or a jimmy young , foreman would have beaten bugner man