BoxRec

Read a article recently regarding hagler being stripped off his title for failing to defend against herol graham.first I've ever heard of it,does anyone know why he choose not to?

forestbox wrote:Read a article recently regarding hagler being stripped off his title for failing to defend against herol graham.first I've ever heard of it,does anyone know why he choose not to?

Yes, he did. Marvelous signed a multi-million dollar fight with the great Sugar Ray Leonard. He was stripped of the WBA World Middleweight Crown because of the defense. I don't blame him one bit. He was not going to pass a second shot at Leonard this time. He made $13 or $20 million dollars I believe for the fight

elmersalsa wrote:

forestbox wrote:Read a article recently regarding hagler being stripped off his title for failing to defend against herol graham.first I've ever heard of it,does anyone know why he choose not to?

Yes, he did. Marvelous signed a multi-million dollar fight with the great Sugar Ray Leonard. He was stripped of the WBA World Middleweight Crown because of the defense. I don't blame him one bit. He was not going to pass a second shot at Leonard this time. He made $13 or $20 million dollars I believe for the fight

Thanks for that.the Nottingham post was making out that hagler ducked graham.i knew there was a another reason.

forestbox wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

forestbox wrote:Read a article recently regarding hagler being stripped off his title for failing to defend against herol graham.first I've ever heard of it,does anyone know why he choose not to?

Yes, he did. Marvelous signed a multi-million dollar fight with the great Sugar Ray Leonard. He was stripped of the WBA World Middleweight Crown because of the defense. I don't blame him one bit. He was not going to pass a second shot at Leonard this time. He made $13 or $20 million dollars I believe for the fight

Thanks for that.the Nottingham post was making out that hagler ducked graham.i knew there was a another reason.

You're welcome, sir. Plus, you and I would have done the same if an opportunity to win $13 or $20 million for one fight was in front our faces.

I think Hagler was a great ,like Chavez. Fighting any style with a conquering spirit.
I remember him scoffing at Hearns claim of a hurt pinky for postponing their fight,saying for a million dollars he'd cut that pinky off and take the fight.
He would have been all over Graham like a leisure suit on Sonny Bono.

Hagler was a better fighter...a clearly much better fighter...Herol Graham would accept that I'm sure... But at that time Hagler was missing a beat. He'd have been chasing Graham all night. Maybe he would have caught up with him. Maybe he wouldn't have. I doubt Hagler at that stage would have stopped him.

By 1986, he was a fading Marvelous for sure. The war with Hearns got to take a toll on him a bit.

Did Hagler walk away from the sport completely after the Leonard fight?

has he never been involved in the training of a fighter(s)??

Graham of that time was a lot tougher than people think, he could very well have danced his way to victory

littlepug wrote:Graham of that time was a lot tougher than people think, he could very well have danced his way to victory

Or yare and Marvin would have to have how many hand's tied behind his back

Hagler is beyond question one of the all time great middleweight champs, and Graham is quite possibly trickier than anyone Marvin defended his title against, bar Leonard.

I think it's possible that Graham could have accomplished what Ray Leonard did against a fading Hagler, but there's no doubt in my mind that if he tried to fight Marvin Hagler the way he fought Kalambay in '87 he would have no chance against any version of Marvellous.

Either way, it's a shame Graham was never given the chance. He fully deserved to share a ring with a truly great middleweight and even in losing he probably enhances his position in the post-Hagler scene.

Anybody has a chance against a fading champion. No matter who he is. Marvelous said that it gets tougher to wake up and run early in the morning if you're sleeping in silk pajamas. By 1986-87, the HUNGER was not there anymore like when he was fighting in those Philly wars for peanuts.

There is no way in my mind, that the great Sugar Ray Leonard beats Marvelous before 1986. By 1982-83, Marvelous was a very hungry man. Hagler by knockout in 5.

elmersalsa wrote:Anybody has a chance against a fading champion. No matter who he is. Marvelous said that it gets tougher to wake up and run early in the morning if you're sleeping in silk pajamas. By 1986-87, the HUNGER was not there anymore like when he was fighting in those Philly wars for peanuts.

There is no way in my mind, that the great Sugar Ray Leonard beats Marvelous before 1986. By 1982-83, Marvelous was a very hungry man. Hagler by knockout in 5.

I'm a far bigger Hagler fan than I am a Leonard fan, but it's always nagged at me how easily Hagler allowed Leonard to psyche him out. And that's exactly what I think happened.
Hagler had all of the physical advantages, and whatever pyjamas he was wearing he should have been sufficiently motivated to beat up Sugar Ray Leonard.

Witherspoon, come on.

Obviously the detached retna Leonard had in 1982 was not something to retire over.
Naturally, Leonard was afraid to fight Duran, Benitez, and Hearns again even though he had already beaten all of them.
Of course he had the master plan to fight Hagler five years in the future, knowing Hagler would no longer be hungry at that time.
(Sort of like it would be a great idea to take a fighter in his prime right now and pretty much hold him out for until 2020)
Even though no other fighter in 130 years of boxing had ever beaten some one as good as Hagler after being out so long, the layoff made it practically a sure thing for Leonard.
Never having a fight where he weighed in the middleweight class is no biggie either.
It makes no sense that Hagler would be hungry going into the biggest fight of his career against an opponent that he detested. He was more pumped for Tony Sibson and Caveman Lee.

Leonard did not beat the Marvelous of 1982. Anybody that believes that Marvelous was prime against Sugar Ray in '87 gotta be crazy. Leonard just beat a FADING MARVELOUS. That's all. I don't consider that a great feat at all. It was much more a calculated strategy than anything else. Big deal.

Herol Graham would've beaten that Marvelous in 1987, too. I want to know a reason why not? Marvelous was fading and Graham was coming up as a good contender. That's why I don't call that Sugar Ray win a great deal like some people in here thought it was. It was a CALCULATED STRATEGY, nothing else.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Witherspoon, come on.

Obviously the detached retna Leonard had in 1982 was not something to retire over.
Naturally, Leonard was afraid to fight Duran, Benitez, and Hearns again even though he had already beaten all of them.
Of course he had the master plan to fight Hagler five years in the future, knowing Hagler would no longer be hungry at that time.
(Sort of like it would be a great idea to take a fighter in his prime right now and pretty much hold him out for until 2020)
Even though no other fighter in 130 years of boxing had ever beaten some one as good as Hagler after being out so long, the layoff made it practically a sure thing for Leonard.
Never having a fight where he weighed in the middleweight class is no biggie either.
It makes no sense that Hagler would be hungry going into the biggest fight of his career against an opponent that he detested. He was more pumped for Tony Sibson and Caveman Lee.

Alp, I think you misunderstood me.

I wasn't questioning that Hagler was motivated to fight Leonard, I think he would be motivated to fight Leonard tomorrow.

All I'm saying is that Ray psyched him out pretty easily, and the reason that makes me uncomfortable as a Hagler man is that it suggests Leonard had an edge over Hagler that he would have exploited at any point in their careers.

But I still think that Leonard only wins against a faded Hagler, even with the psychological edge.

Well of course Leonard only beat a faded version of Hagler. Leonard himself was in his absolute prime despite never weighing 160 before. Naturally Leonard was at his very best despite having one fight in the previous five years.
Which is why going into the fight no one gave Hagler any chance at all.

It was all calculated. In 1982 Leonard knew in five years he would have his chance and he would be ready; by not fighting.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Well of course Leonard only beat a faded version of Hagler. Leonard himself was in his absolute prime despite never weighing 160 before. Naturally Leonard was at his very best despite having one fight in the previous five years.
Which is why going into the fight no one gave Hagler any chance at all.

It was all calculated. In 1982 Leonard knew in five years he would have his chance and he would be ready; by not fighting.

Yes, I think there was a big element of calculation in Leonard's decision to fight Hagler in '87.

But I still think that Hagler had all of the advantages, and I think that what Leonard did was spectacular.

I don't see where our opinions differ, other than, being a fan boy, I insist on couching my opinion in apologist terms favourable to Marvin.

Then, who in your view would've won if Marvelous meets Sugar Ray in '82 or '83?

I don't see a 1987 job here. Marvelous in my view, would be too much. Leonard doesn't belong in the ring with him

elmersalsa wrote:Then, who in your view would've won if Marvelous meets Sugar Ray in '82 or '83?

I don't see a 1987 job here. Marvelous in my view, would be too much. Leonard doesn't belong in the ring with him

In my view, Hagler wins anytime before '86. I'm sure you will agree.

I also think that Leonard has enough in his armoury to make it a close fight, whenever you want to.match them.

witherspoon wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:Then, who in your view would've won if Marvelous meets Sugar Ray in '82 or '83?

I don't see a 1987 job here. Marvelous in my view, would be too much. Leonard doesn't belong in the ring with him

In my view, Hagler wins anytime before '86. I'm sure you will agree.

I also think that Leonard has enough in his armoury to make it a close fight, whenever you want to.match them.

It would've been a competitive fight, no doubt, a more fiercely fight than the one we saw, but, this is again the rule in boxing that a great and bigger boxer always beat the great smaller one. Above welterweight, I didn't see an indication that Leonard could've adjust to 160lbs just like he was at 147. Neither would've he had the same quickness of hands and power to keep the Marvelous monster off him. Two great and complete fighters, but, Marvelous would've been too strong.

It's a rule that Leonard would not break like so many others have done.
He would not want to get into trouble for breaking a rule.
Obviously the speed that Leonard would have in 1983 when he would have been an active fighter was nowhere near what it was in 1987.
Sure, Leonard at about 75% was able to beat Hagler at about 90%, but it would be illogical for Leonard to win when they are both at 100.

Marvelous would be all wrong for Sugar Ray in '82. That's why Leonard didn't want none of that monster. THE WEIGHT would've been too much. Plus, a hungry and complete boxer like Marvelous was at his very best. Only by looking to what he did to Caveman Lee and Tommy Hearns was scary.

Marvelous wins this fight. The physical advantages and equally match in talent, plus at his comfortable weight class is key

Besides his win over The Hitman, which other win you like from Marvelous?