BoxRec

What if Gene Tunney had opted to make another defence against the man who had acquitted himself so well versus Dempsey until being KOd by the old testicle/chin combination?

Sharkey was entering a beautiful run of form. Could the ex-naval officer have bumped off the marine?

Can't believe this hasn't been raised before. Sharkey's all action style and natural athleticism would have been a hell of a test for Gene.

Tunney was clearly a master boxer who made his HW opponents' size advantages work against them.

It's a 50-50 match up.

I thought the same thing, felt as if I hadn't seen it discussed before. I too see it 50/50, but have a slight personal bias for Sharkey, who is one of my favoutites.

Sharkey was really quite brilliant but had a number of off-nights. He'd need to be at his very best. At that stage in his career he had the bit between his teeth.

He gets overlooked today. Nice to know HWs were inconsistent even back in the golden years.

sharkey was a second rate heavy. I don't think you can dispute that. GT beat a first rate heavy twice - tunney wins against jack a no brainer in this house

A real fight, in my eyes, would be..... Sharkey vs Braddock.

You guys are ALL BRILIANT!

ImranSarwar wrote:You guys are ALL BRILIANT!

Well in order for you to recognize this, and state it so succinctly, you must be a pretty fart smeller yourself.

misterpunch wrote:sharkey was a second rate heavy. I don't think you can dispute that. GT beat a first rate heavy twice - tunney wins against jack a no brainer in this house

What makes you say this? Watching him now he has the workrate and movement of a middleweight.

He was inconsistent but still a fantastic HW on his night.

Ezzard wrote:

misterpunch wrote:sharkey was a second rate heavy. I don't think you can dispute that. GT beat a first rate heavy twice - tunney wins against jack a no brainer in this house

What makes you say this? Watching him now he has the workrate and movement of a middleweight.

He was inconsistent but still a fantastic HW on his night.

Sharkey was on his way to beating a first rate heavy until Dempsey planted his fist in Sharkey's balls to rescue himself. JD told Sharkey himself he never wanted a rematch with him. And then he knocked Tunney out in the exact same round in his next fight.

Amazed that anyone could watch Jack Sharkey and call a man that gifted 'second rate'. I can only assume you judge fighters' worth by skimming Boxrec records and are too mentally incurious to explore their stories. Fighters were matched tough and often in those days - it was many decades before the appeal of the perfect looking record was discovered, and managers began to take a more cynical, calculated approach to matching their fighters.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

Ezzard wrote:

misterpunch wrote:sharkey was a second rate heavy. I don't think you can dispute that. GT beat a first rate heavy twice - tunney wins against jack a no brainer in this house

What makes you say this? Watching him now he has the workrate and movement of a middleweight.

He was inconsistent but still a fantastic HW on his night.

Sharkey was on his way to beating a first rate heavy until Dempsey planted his fist in Sharkey's balls to rescue himself. JD told Sharkey himself he never wanted a rematch with him. And then he knocked Tunney out in the exact same round in his next fight.

Amazed that anyone could watch Jack Sharkey and call a man that gifted 'second rate'. I can only assume you judge fighters' worth by skimming Boxrec records and are too mentally incurious to explore their stories. Fighters were matched tough and often in those days - it was many decades before the appeal of the perfect looking record was discovered, and managers began to take a more cynical, calculated approach to matching their fighters.

Who knocked Tunney out?

Dempsey famously knocked out Tunney in the rematch but was robbed by the long count. Tunney on the floor is one of the most iconic images in boxing history.

Sharkey really was a superb talent. And middle wicket punch or not the fact Dempsey survived the early onslaught and eventually won their fight is a testament to The Mauler's greatness.

Sharkey had used Harry Wills as a punch bag 12 months earlier. Wills was past his best but even so the fight was in no way competitive. And Wills was a fantastic boxer.

Tuan is right about the cursed perfect record. Back in the day putting a prospect in with a guy who was actually better than him at that stage in his career was considered a part of their education. it made them better. Just like a chess player...the only way to improve is to play against people who are better than you.

Fans today write fighters off if they suffered a knockdown let alone a defeat.

Sharkey certainly was not "second-rate". He had a lot of ability. Sometimes he made the most of it, sometimes he didn't.
He had some impressive wins and went out of his way to fight tough competition.

Sharkey only got a draw with Heeney. Tunney had no problem with Heeney at all.
Sharkey also lost to Risko.

Just when he was getting in line for a title shot against Tunney, he went 0-2-1 in three fights.

It was his own fault that he left himself open to knocked out by Dempsey.
As for Tunney-Dempsey II, Dempsey was the one who was stupid. He was not robbed. The referee (under the rules of the fight at the time) correctly did not start the count right away.

Having said all this, if (and it's a big if) Sharkey fights to his ability, he would have given Tunney a tough fight. I would still lean towards Tunney.

I wasn't being facetious Jim, didn't know if it was a typo...since I see it the way Alp explains it and I thought that was the accepted facts.

What always impresses me about that was the moment Dempsey hurt Tunney he was all over him. The killer instinct was still there. The years just rolled away in those few precious seconds.

Dempsey had fought under both sets of rules.

Wasn't another controversy that when Tunney dropped Dempsey a few rounds later the ref started counting before Tunney went to the neutral corner?

Tuan_Jim wrote:Dempsey famously knocked out Tunney in the rematch but was robbed by the long count. Tunney on the floor is one of the most iconic images in boxing history.

He didn't knock Tunney out you lunatic.

When did the rule change from not starting until a guy was in a neutral corner (like Tunney-Dempsey II) to the rule we have today when the count starts immediately?

I was being glib myself. Had Dempsey merely obeyed the ref he would regained his title on a 7th round KO. He didn't, thus he lost. The point I was making related to misterpunch's dismissal of Sharkey as a second-rater - and yet Sharkey was beating Dempsey until losing on a dubious KO. Next time out the first rater Tunney was, under the strictest interpretation of the 10-count, also KOd in 7. I thought that put Sharkey in pretty fine company myself.

Dempsey/Tunney II has gone down in history as The Long Count for a reason.

Tuan_Jim wrote:I was being glib myself. Had Dempsey merely obeyed the ref he would regained his title on a 7th round KO. He didn't, thus he lost. The point I was making related to misterpunch's dismissal of Sharkey as a second-rater - and yet Sharkey was beating Dempsey until losing on a dubious KO. Next time out the first rater Tunney was, under the strictest interpretation of the 10-count, also KOd in 7. I thought that put Sharkey in pretty fine company myself.

Dempsey/Tunney II has gone down in history as The Long Count for a reason.

Tunney would have got up.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:I was being glib myself. Had Dempsey merely obeyed the ref he would regained his title on a 7th round KO. He didn't, thus he lost. The point I was making related to misterpunch's dismissal of Sharkey as a second-rater - and yet Sharkey was beating Dempsey until losing on a dubious KO. Next time out the first rater Tunney was, under the strictest interpretation of the 10-count, also KOd in 7. I thought that put Sharkey in pretty fine company myself.

Dempsey/Tunney II has gone down in history as The Long Count for a reason.

Tunney would have got up.

I agree, that iconic image is of Tunney wisely waiting out the count before rising cleanly to win the fight.

Tomasino wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:I was being glib myself. Had Dempsey merely obeyed the ref he would regained his title on a 7th round KO. He didn't, thus he lost. The point I was making related to misterpunch's dismissal of Sharkey as a second-rater - and yet Sharkey was beating Dempsey until losing on a dubious KO. Next time out the first rater Tunney was, under the strictest interpretation of the 10-count, also KOd in 7. I thought that put Sharkey in pretty fine company myself.

Dempsey/Tunney II has gone down in history as The Long Count for a reason.

Tunney would have got up.

I agree, that iconic image is of Tunney wisely waiting out the count before rising cleanly to win the fight.

Yes, let's dismiss the decades of lingering controversy over the Long Count, let's pretend the thousands of articles discussing the what ifs had never been written. To treat Tunney's ability to rise in time and win as incontestable fact flies in the face of all reason.

"I'm quite sure I could have gotten up earlier," said Tunney later. But would he have been physically able to avoid the follow up onslaught? Tunney himself admitted he wasn't sure. If only he could have lived to 2015, so a couple of blokes on the internet could resolve the question and put his mind at ease!

Tuan_Jim wrote:Yes, let's dismiss the decades of lingering controversy over the Long Count, let's pretend the thousands of articles discussing the what ifs had never been written. To treat Tunney's ability to rise in time and win as incontestable fact flies in the face of all reason.

"I'm quite sure I could have gotten up earlier," said Tunney later. But would he have been physically able to avoid the follow up onslaught? Tunney himself admitted he wasn't sure. If only he could have lived to 2015, so a couple of blokes on the internet could resolve the question and put his mind at ease!

He was quite a dramatic guy Gene Tunney. He certainly wasn't knocked out. He got up and danced deftly away.

I know he wasn't literally knocked out, but Boxrec is teeming with millions of WKOs over men who weren't unconscious - I mean he was down for more than a 10-count and under the rules of boxing, at least traditionally, that's a 'KO by' on the ledger.

I love Tunney, but he was certainly in a state on the canvas. Those were full-blooded shots from one of the all-time terrifying punchers.