BoxRec

... been more comprehensively dethroned than Floyd Patterson?

KTFO twice in a row by Liston lasting a grand total of 4m16s between the 2 bouts

Of course Sonny made a good job trying to match him in his next 2 world title bouts, but not quit as convincing

davie wrote: but not quit as convincing

Just noticed my accidental spelling error, genuinely never meant that but quite fitting

these four fights of sonny liston might be the
weirdest streak in boxing history.

it is quite telling in a way about the greatness
of muhammad ali. he was in a way the patterson
or tunny version at real heavy weight and it made
all the difference in the world.

man wrote:these four fights of sonny liston might be the
weirdest streak in boxing history.

it is quite telling in a way about the greatness
of muhammad ali. he was in a way the patterson
or tunny version at real heavy weight and it made
all the difference in the world.

He didnt have Patterson's chin.

micheal spinks was the linear heavy weight champ before tyson destroyed him in 91 seconds

Frazier against Foreman, Willard against Dempsey.

That Patterson came back so impressively made Liston's two demolition jobs all the more eyebrow raising.

Sonny would have had a long reign of terror had he been granted a title shot when he deserved it, years earlier. His trouncings of Big Cat (II), Folley, Machen etc would all have been world title fights.

evrenb wrote:He didnt have Patterson's chin.

ali didn't need so much chin in his early
going ...

Tuan_Jim wrote:Frazier against Foreman.

i hate to watch this fight. it is one thing
to lose it is another to get humiliated.

Jimmy McLarnin won the welterweight title with a first time stoppage of Young Corbett III. He decked him three times.

Always thought the Al Singer thing was interesting.

Singer won the lightweight title with a first round KO of Sammy Mandell. He knocked Mandell down three times in two minutes.

Singer lost the title when he was knocked out by Tony Canzoneri in the first round. The fight barely lasted a minute.

davie wrote:... been more comprehensively dethroned than Floyd Patterson?

KTFO twice in a row by Liston lasting a grand total of 4m16s between the 2 bouts

Of course Sonny made a good job trying to match him in his next 2 world title bouts, but not quit as convincing

What about Floyd Patterson getting bounced off the canvas 7 times in 2 rounds by Ingemar Johannsen................................................................oh, wait a minute!

@Witherspoon...well remembered, the Swede's fabled 'Hammer of Thor' dethroned Floyd almost as dramatically as Liston's bombs.
The big, telling difference was that Floyd regrouped and Ingemar was then the one getting bombed.

Hide's WBO reign was not of the same historic importance as Floyd's tenure....but when it went wrong for Herbie, it went massively tits-up.
Bowe spanked him silly and then a brutal Vitali did the same; they were both huge beatdowns with the smaller Hide getting absolutely rag-dolled.

From a heavyweight perspective; Patterson and Hide would seem to be on a par and suffered similar, humbling impolsions.
However, Patterson is a key part of the heavyweight story and Hide is more of an interesting footnote.

Bodyshot3 wrote:Patterson and Hide would seem to be on a par and suffered similar, humbling impolsions.
However, Patterson is a key part of the heavyweight story and Hide is more of an interesting footnote.

'Interesting' is generous to Herbie Hide.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

Bodyshot3 wrote:Patterson and Hide would seem to be on a par and suffered similar, humbling impolsions.
However, Patterson is a key part of the heavyweight story and Hide is more of an interesting footnote.

'Interesting' is generous to Herbie Hide.

hide hurt bowe , i see an interview with bowe and he said hide hurt him more than anyone else

At 200lb Hide looked like he could hit with more force than the 240lb giants. That is interesting. But his career and his 'titles' were ridiculous.

'Interesting' is generous to Herbie Hide.

Possibly Tuan

Herbie was very hard to like and so he always gets a lousy press - politely put - he was often a total bell-end.

However the guy had real talent and it was his misfortune to be a small, naturally very aggressive heavyweight operating at a time when the top heavyweights got way bigger but were also proper athletes rather than slow-moving, hittable and cumbersome bits of heavy/static scenery.

Hide really was the guy who was swimming right against the tide; when being a small-ish heavweight who could punch and wanted to press a fight hard was no longer a realistic option. Far better to be Chris Byrd than Hide!

Herbie's heavyweight career - especially with a new breed of seriously big, mobile men emerging - was probably the last of its kind and I freely give him so credit for being a small man who got so far. He had the nuts to go for Bowe and for a few rounds had RB rattled.

There were of course dire mistakes; having being finally bounced by Bowe it would have been sensible to have go into the fight with Vitali and used some speed, shown some patience and not squared up to a huge guy who hit plenty hard. Herbie was a total fool that night

I think Hide's chin and lack of heart were his main problems, rather than the expanding size of the heavies. He had the power to hurt any of them, & had the same frame as Holyfield and Ali. He could box beautifully until the inevitable pressure mounted & then came the terror & convulsing.

Always remember his ex trainer Jim McDonnell discussing Hide's psyche. 10 weeks before a fight he was the picture of confidence, most dangerous man in the world. But then as the weeks passed and the fight grew close and was becoming reality he became terrified. The classic bully.

I always wonder what a 12 round pro fight between him and Akinwande would have looked like.

witherspoon wrote:

davie wrote:... been more comprehensively dethroned than Floyd Patterson?

KTFO twice in a row by Liston lasting a grand total of 4m16s between the 2 bouts

Of course Sonny made a good job trying to match him in his next 2 world title bouts, but not quit as convincing

What about Floyd Patterson getting bounced off the canvas 7 times in 2 rounds by Ingemar Johannsen................................................................oh, wait a minute!

Never thought about that.
The answer to, "who has been more comprehensively dethroned than Floyd against Liston?" is still Floyd Patterson!

He liked a bit of drama

The way he laid Ingo out, was a bit of the same in the other direction as well.

All good selections.

And very fun to read over this big red box of crawfords assorted biscuits and tea here on this freezing dark south london night....i can see the smoke billowing from the tea

A modern one-Dawson, vs Stevenson
Eamonn Loughran, vs Jose Luis Lopez

I think Hide's chin and lack of heart were his main problems, rather than the expanding size of the heavies. He had the power to hurt any of them, & had the same frame as Holyfield and Ali. He could box beautifully until the inevitable pressure mounted & then came the terror & convulsing.

Always remember his ex trainer Jim McDonnell discussing Hide's psyche. 10 weeks before a fight he was the picture of confidence, most dangerous man in the world. But then as the weeks passed and the fight grew close and was becoming reality he became terrified. The classic bully.

I always wonder what a 12 round pro fight between him and Akinwande would have looked like.

Interesting Tuan

I'd disagree with you on some bits (unsurprisingly)....Herbie really was a small guy operating in a big man's world (he'd drop back down to cruiser with few issues and operate there for several years) and the fact that he had a naturally aggressive style put him in danger.

His chin was probably ok-ish; the problem was that he was fighting much bigger guys, who I still think had got more mobile, but in an often very macho, devil-may-care style.

The flaws in his make-up that you've flagged-up are all entirely fair comment though and that's where some double-jepardy comes in; a small but hard-punching heavyweight who does not follow a rational gameplan.

He made some very daft, throw-away comments in the build-up to the fight with Vitali that strongly suggested that he had not even remotely bothered to see (or prepare for) exactly what was looming on the horizon.

The way he sort of stood in front of Vitali that night - not realising the guy was huge, a physical specimen and who had come to win - still has me shaking my head.

He surely must have felt a couple of those early, thudding jabs but even then he thought he could mix it and that the big European bloke he'd never heard about would crumple.

That fight underlined the comments that have always aimed at Herbie: he stubbornly ignored good, professional advice both before and during key fights and thought he knew best.

To be fair to Patterson...I don't think he ever fought that dumb and the Liston defeats were down to Sonny's size and excellence.

Tyson v Douglas.....you could see the title slipping away round by round