BoxRec

Thought I'd give this a go, I've been reading a bit about fly weights (particularly British ones). Feel free to tear it to shreds

1. Jimmy Wilde
2. Pascual Perez
3.Pancho Villa
4.Benny Lynch
5. Fidel La Barba
6. Miguel Canto
7. Frankie Genaro
8. Jackie Paterson
9. Pongsaklek Wonjongkam
10. Midget Wolgast
11. Peter Kane
12. Little Pancho
13. Roman Gonzalez (unless he travels up through the divisions, which he might, he will likely be a lot higher by the time he retires)
14. Betulio Gonzalez
15. Jackie Brown
16.Little Dado
17.Rinty Monaghan
18. Dado Marino
19.Chartchai Chionoi
20. Pone Kingpetch
21.Newsboy Brown
22. Sot Chitlada
23. Terry Allen
24. Fighting Harada
25. Juan Francisco estrada

With guys like Gonzalez and Estrada, is this incorporating all of their work? As if 105 and 108 shouldn't be included? Or is it solely their work at flyweight?

Jpreisser wrote:With guys like Gonzalez and Estrada, is this incorporating all of their work? As if 105 and 108 shouldn't be included? Or is it solely their work at flyweight?

Estrada has done most of his best stuff at 112lbs (his loss to Chocolatito coming at light fly), the Viloria, Segura and Melindo win are respectable (some of the guys on that list have a lot of dross on their resume),
WBO & WBA super champ with 7 defences, I didn't think it was outrageous to have him prop up the group at no 25 but wouldn't argue extensively if you were t5o say he didn't belong there

As for Chocolatito himself, how many flyweights have been ranked by some as p4p no1?
His CV might not be the deepest and he might have done much of his good work at light fly, but his ability is up there with the best, you'd have to fancy him to beat a good few names on that list. His stay at fly weight might be brief but his impact has been impressive and his fists have said more than his Boxrec profile might

I'll be honest, I just wanted to get a couple current guys in there and felt there was a couple solid shouts from these 2. I probably looked at around 10-15 names and records that could have dropped into the bottom 5 of that list with ease. Making these lists is stressful you know....

Anyway, if these guys don't quite qualify on current acheivement, I think it's fair to say both have plenty big wins ahead and should stroll in to a future version with ease and likely higher than they are now

I'd fancy him to beat most of the names on that list. Anything 112 and under is pretty much all inclusive for me when it comes to rating Flyweights, honestly. I just don't see the disparity. The Jr weight classes are a shame in general, but especially at those mini weights. I have zero issue including guys like Lopez, Chang, Zapata, etc when rating the Flyweight greats. Gonzalez and Estrada are making their way up, too.

King Carlos wrote:I'd fancy him to beat most of the names on that list. Anything 112 and under is pretty much all inclusive for me when it comes to rating Flyweights, honestly. I just don't see the disparity. The Jr weight classes are a shame in general, but especially at those mini weights. I have zero issue including guys like Lopez, Chang, Zapata, etc when rating the Flyweight greats. Gonzalez and Estrada are making their way up, too.

Don't you think it's hard enough compiling an all time list from 1 division without trying to compare 3

davie wrote:

King Carlos wrote:I'd fancy him to beat most of the names on that list. Anything 112 and under is pretty much all inclusive for me when it comes to rating Flyweights, honestly. I just don't see the disparity. The Jr weight classes are a shame in general, but especially at those mini weights. I have zero issue including guys like Lopez, Chang, Zapata, etc when rating the Flyweight greats. Gonzalez and Estrada are making their way up, too.

Don't you think it's hard enough compiling an all time list from 1 division without trying to compare 3

It was all one weight class originally, and still should be. On top of that, given the lack of historical depth at those Jr divisions (especially Strawweight), no, I don't think it's difficult at all to just splice it all together.

King Carlos wrote:

davie wrote:

King Carlos wrote:I'd fancy him to beat most of the names on that list. Anything 112 and under is pretty much all inclusive for me when it comes to rating Flyweights, honestly. I just don't see the disparity. The Jr weight classes are a shame in general, but especially at those mini weights. I have zero issue including guys like Lopez, Chang, Zapata, etc when rating the Flyweight greats. Gonzalez and Estrada are making their way up, too.

Don't you think it's hard enough compiling an all time list from 1 division without trying to compare 3

It was all one weight class originally, and still should be. On top of that, given the lack of historical depth at those Jr divisions (especially Strawweight), no, I don't think it's difficult at all to just splice it all together.

You're a fornicating hard man to please

IMHO, Fidel LaBarba not even close.

King Carlos wrote:I'd fancy him to beat most of the names on that list. Anything 112 and under is pretty much all inclusive for me when it comes to rating Flyweights, honestly. I just don't see the disparity. The Jr weight classes are a shame in general, but especially at those mini weights. I have zero issue including guys like Lopez, Chang, Zapata, etc when rating the Flyweight greats. Gonzalez and Estrada are making their way up, too.

its a lot harder than it looks dropping a couple of pounds when your already a little guy, that 2 pounds is like 7 to a middle, seems theres a lack of knowledge with some fans when it comes to the little guys which is a shame considering the quality of skill sets that reside in the lower divisions.

I posted a top 50 in 2007

1.Jimmy Wilde
2.Pascual Perez
3.Jimmy Barry
4.Pancho Villa
5.Frankie Genaro
6.Horacio Accavallo
7.Santos Laciar
8.Miguel Canto
9.Benny Lynch
10.Emile Pladner
11.Hiroyuki Ebihara
12.Fidel LaBarba
13.Newsboy Brown
14.Rinty Monaghan
15.Masao Ohba
16.Yuri Arbachakov
17.Pone Kingpetch
18.Betulio Gonzalez
19.Chartchai Chionoi
20.Yoshio Shirai
21.Midget Wolgast
22.Jackie Paterson
23.Johnny Hill
24.Salvatore Burrini
25.Jackie Brown
26.Peter Kane
27.Sot Chitalada
28.Fidel Bassa
29.Chatchai Sasakul
30.Ponsaklek Wonjongkam
31.Saen Sor Ploenchit
32.Frenchy Belanger
33.Willie Davies
34.Dado Marino
35.Muangchai Kittikasem
36.Black Bill
37.Little Dado
38.Jackie Jurich
39.Vic Darchinyan
40.Johnny Coulon
41.Terry Allen
42.Izzy Schwartz
43.Venice Borkhorsor
44.Small Montana
45.Percy Jones
46.Irene Pacheco
47.Mark Johnson
48.Joe Symonds
49.Shoji Oguma
50.Erbito Salavarria


I'll have to think if i changed my opinion much

littlepug wrote:

King Carlos wrote:I'd fancy him to beat most of the names on that list. Anything 112 and under is pretty much all inclusive for me when it comes to rating Flyweights, honestly. I just don't see the disparity. The Jr weight classes are a shame in general, but especially at those mini weights. I have zero issue including guys like Lopez, Chang, Zapata, etc when rating the Flyweight greats. Gonzalez and Estrada are making their way up, too.

its a lot harder than it looks dropping a couple of pounds when your already a little guy, that 2 pounds is like 7 to a middle, seems theres a lack of knowledge with some fans when it comes to the little guys which is a shame considering the quality of skill sets that reside in the lower divisions.

Who said anything about dropping weight?

King Carlos wrote:

littlepug wrote:

King Carlos wrote:I'd fancy him to beat most of the names on that list. Anything 112 and under is pretty much all inclusive for me when it comes to rating Flyweights, honestly. I just don't see the disparity. The Jr weight classes are a shame in general, but especially at those mini weights. I have zero issue including guys like Lopez, Chang, Zapata, etc when rating the Flyweight greats. Gonzalez and Estrada are making their way up, too.

its a lot harder than it looks dropping a couple of pounds when your already a little guy, that 2 pounds is like 7 to a middle, seems theres a lack of knowledge with some fans when it comes to the little guys which is a shame considering the quality of skill sets that reside in the lower divisions.

Who said anything about dropping weight?

I was referring to you not being able to see the disparity between the lower weight divisions in a roundabout way

littlepug wrote:

King Carlos wrote:

littlepug wrote: its a lot harder than it looks dropping a couple of pounds when your already a little guy, that 2 pounds is like 7 to a middle, seems theres a lack of knowledge with some fans when it comes to the little guys which is a shame considering the quality of skill sets that reside in the lower divisions.

Who said anything about dropping weight?

I was referring to you not being able to see the disparity between the lower weight divisions in a roundabout way

There is no real disparity. The 112 weight class was there on its own for about a half century and did just fine. Pretty much none of the actually talented fighters have ever had any trouble moving from 105 to 108, 108-112, 105-112, etc. There's a reason for that. There's only been a few standouts to have stayed at one Jr weight class their whole careers, and it hurts their standing as a result.

Bottom line, none of the 105 or 108 guys were "too small" for Flyweight.

If you say so your highness !

Looks like I won that exchange.

Seamus wrote:
3.Jimmy Barry

This is a good spot. Listed as a Bantam despite never being listed as being over 112lbs.I'd never heard of him
A lot of his fights against better opponents were draws though.
Begs the question, how was the scoring done in the 19th century?
It can't be easy to score a draw in 3 seperate 20 round fights and even better, the police intervened to stop his fight with Casper Leon in the 14th round of a 15 round bout, they did so to "save Leon" yet it was scored a D pts 14/15. bizarre

Seamus wrote:I posted a top 50 in 2007

1.Jimmy Wilde
2.Pascual Perez
3.Jimmy Barry
4.Pancho Villa
5.Frankie Genaro
6.Horacio Accavallo
7.Santos Laciar
8.Miguel Canto
9.Benny Lynch
10.Emile Pladner
11.Hiroyuki Ebihara
12.Fidel LaBarba
13.Newsboy Brown
14.Rinty Monaghan
15.Masao Ohba
16.Yuri Arbachakov
17.Pone Kingpetch
18.Betulio Gonzalez
19.Chartchai Chionoi
20.Yoshio Shirai
21.Midget Wolgast
22.Jackie Paterson
23.Johnny Hill
24.Salvatore Burrini
25.Jackie Brown
26.Peter Kane
27.Sot Chitalada
28.Fidel Bassa
29.Chatchai Sasakul
30.Ponsaklek Wonjongkam
31.Saen Sor Ploenchit
32.Frenchy Belanger
33.Willie Davies
34.Dado Marino
35.Muangchai Kittikasem
36.Black Bill
37.Little Dado
38.Jackie Jurich
39.Vic Darchinyan
40.Johnny Coulon
41.Terry Allen
42.Izzy Schwartz
43.Venice Borkhorsor
44.Small Montana
45.Percy Jones
46.Irene Pacheco
47.Mark Johnson
48.Joe Symonds
49.Shoji Oguma
50.Erbito Salavarria


I'll have to think if i changed my opinion much

Seamus, I consider both Borkorsor and Accavallo top ten. Glad to see you included them.

King Carlos wrote:Looks like I won that exchange.

Ha ha knew I couldn't change your mind so gave it up

Weren't Barry's last 9 or 10 bouts staged exhibitions? It's a wonder why they're even listed on his record.

scartissue wrote:

Seamus wrote:I posted a top 50 in 2007

1.Jimmy Wilde
2.Pascual Perez
3.Jimmy Barry
4.Pancho Villa
5.Frankie Genaro
6.Horacio Accavallo
7.Santos Laciar
8.Miguel Canto
9.Benny Lynch
10.Emile Pladner
11.Hiroyuki Ebihara
12.Fidel LaBarba
13.Newsboy Brown
14.Rinty Monaghan
15.Masao Ohba
16.Yuri Arbachakov
17.Pone Kingpetch
18.Betulio Gonzalez
19.Chartchai Chionoi
20.Yoshio Shirai
21.Midget Wolgast
22.Jackie Paterson
23.Johnny Hill
24.Salvatore Burrini
25.Jackie Brown
26.Peter Kane
27.Sot Chitalada
28.Fidel Bassa
29.Chatchai Sasakul
30.Ponsaklek Wonjongkam
31.Saen Sor Ploenchit
32.Frenchy Belanger
33.Willie Davies
34.Dado Marino
35.Muangchai Kittikasem
36.Black Bill
37.Little Dado
38.Jackie Jurich
39.Vic Darchinyan
40.Johnny Coulon
41.Terry Allen
42.Izzy Schwartz
43.Venice Borkhorsor
44.Small Montana
45.Percy Jones
46.Irene Pacheco
47.Mark Johnson
48.Joe Symonds
49.Shoji Oguma
50.Erbito Salavarria


I'll have to think if i changed my opinion much

Seamus, I consider both Borkorsor and Accavallo top ten. Glad to see you included them.

I'd looked at Borkosror and wasn't overawed by his Flyweight credentials, 2 good wins against Gonzalez and Salavarria.
Seamus went no43, I'd agree with that. couldn't make my 25 and certainly could see him in a top 10 at any weight

Horacio Accavallo slipped through the net, closer inspection of his record, I should have had him on there.
Santos Laciar should have made my 25 but I wouldn't have him as high as Seamus did
Emile Pladner, Hiroyuki Ebihara were a couple of other I'd looked at and left just out of the top 25

Borkhorsor was a tank. Only man to ever stop Gonzalez, and did so in one-sided fashion. Then he moved up to Bantamweight and turned Rafael Herrera's face into hamburger. Not the deepest resume by any means, but when he was in with the best, he certainly showed he belonged. He'd have held his own with the Galaxy bros any day of the week, if you ask me.

King Carlos wrote:Borkhorsor was a tank. Only man to ever stop Gonzalez, and did so in one-sided fashion. Then he moved up to Bantamweight and turned Rafael Herrera's face into hamburger. Not the deepest resume by any means, but when he was in with the best, he certainly showed he belonged. He'd have held his own with the Galaxy bros any day of the week, if you ask me.

Interesting thanks, I'll check him out.

Counter-puncher wrote:

King Carlos wrote:Borkhorsor was a tank. Only man to ever stop Gonzalez, and did so in one-sided fashion. Then he moved up to Bantamweight and turned Rafael Herrera's face into hamburger. Not the deepest resume by any means, but when he was in with the best, he certainly showed he belonged. He'd have held his own with the Galaxy bros any day of the week, if you ask me.

Interesting thanks, I'll check him out.

Was just thinking the same when I read that

Goes to show, actually watching fighter tells you a helluva lot reading their records doesn't

Davie, Borkorsor back in the early to mid 70s was awesome. Just going by numbers does a fighter like Borkorsor a disservice. At 112 he was an absolute monster. Outclassing top contender Fernando Cabanela was amazing in itself, but the demolition job he did on Betulio Gonzalez (whom you rate at 14 and which I feel is a viable rating) was never matched throughout Betulio's career. Completely whitewashing Sallavarria over 15 is also amazing. But when he moved to 118 it falls into place how almost unbeatable he was at 112 when he destroys the former #1 contender Julio Guerrero. Guerrero was an amazing banger and Venice did another demo job. As has been mentioned, the Rafael Herrera fight was amazing and Herrera was an amazing champion. Also not to forget, he also held Rodolfo Martinez to a split decision, dropping him in the process. Borkorsor is top 10 in my book.

Good stuff. A buddy of mine has worked in Thailand for years (purely for purposes of studying the combat culture) now and rates Borkhorsor as the greatest boxer in the country's history.