BoxRec

Armed with my ever ready sense of good humor,

I wanted to start a thread simply asking Kalan's opinion of a few things.

(And to find out if perhaps concern and doubt over my 5(+1) most unconventional opinions can finally be laid to rest by the courage of Kalan's convictions.)




1. Joe Frazier at his best (as was demonstrated in real time) would always pose the single greatest style challenge for Ali (Exception noted: Wilt Chamberlain)

2. Aaron Pryor was a good fighter, who was managed to develop a GREAT reputation far exceeding his actual abilities

3. Maura Mina may be the single most under rated LHW of all time.

4. The Charles/Moore fight outcomes were an anomaly and could easily have come out in any other mathematical way. There was little if any certainty to the outcomes purely based on their styles/skills/abilities. Charles indeed did NOT have Moore's number as the outcomes would suggest.

5. The Best Liston would always have his hands full, and likely be easily dominated by the best Ali. (as was demonstrated in real time) (Also: Wilt Chamberlain would also Dominate the likes of Sonny)

Bonus Round Question to be reviewed if time allows........Primo Canera would also have little Chance against Wilt Chamberlain, UNLESS......the proper amount of money was placed in the proper bags at the proper time in the proper denominations)

I'm confident I will finally be vindicated on each and every one of these outlying/minority/controversial theories I have painstakingly championed through the years.


IF he disagrees on all counts, I will of course need to go back to the drawing board and demonstrate humility in all things pugilistic from this point forward.

I'll take a shot an answering until he shows up.

1.If there had been a rematch 5 months after the FOTC Ali would have won. (Frazier would only make up the mountain once)
2.Aaron Pryor had tremendous abilities as it was.
3.I'll have to think more about Mina. Very good fighter.
4.Charles clearly had the better of Moore, but due to Moore's power and Charles not having the best chin, Archie would eventually knock him out if they fought enough times. And I say that with a straight face.
5.Ali always beats Liston, Liston always beats Chamberlain
6.Carnera always beats Chamberlain as well.

1. Joe Frazier at his best (as was demonstrated in real time) would always pose the single greatest style challenge for Ali (Exception noted: Wilt Chamberlain)

2. Aaron Pryor was a good fighter, who was managed to develop a GREAT reputation far exceeding his actual abilities

3. Maura Mina may be the single most under rated LHW of all time.

4. The Charles/Moore fight outcomes were an anomaly and could easily have come out in any other mathematical way. There was little if any certainty to the outcomes purely based on their styles/skills/abilities. Charles indeed did NOT have Moore's number as the outcomes would suggest.

5. The Best Liston would always have his hands full, and likely be easily dominated by the best Ali. (as was demonstrated in real time) (Also: Wilt Chamberlain would also Dominate the likes of Sonny

Ans 1.. Of the boxers Ali faced Holmes was clearly the best and would have beaten the best Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Young, or Norton...

Ans 2... Pryor was limited, but he was a great attacker. He would have been competitive with Duran or Leonard, but wouldn't win...

Ans 3... Mike Gibbons was maybe the most underrated LHW... Charles at his best was too good for Moore at any time. Had him beat.

Ans 4... Liston at his best would beat Ali, but he was well past his best. Ali didn't dominate Liston. The first fight was even on the cards when Liston had to quit due to a severe tear in his left biceps. The commission brought in 7 doctors to examine Liston trying to find one who would say Liston was faking the injury. Every doctor said Liston has a severe muscle tear in his left biceps and couldn't have continued fighting with it. In the rematch Liston was NOT given a count by the referee. Ali could easily have been DQ'd for refusing a referee's order to go to a neutral corner. By the time Walcott finally pushed Ali to a neutral corner Liston was on his feet. You don't get up with a fighter standing over you or running around because he can punch you. The count should have been suspended like it was in Dempsey-Tunney II, when Dempsey delayed going to a neutral corner because it was a brand new rule he wasn't used to. The rule had been in force for decades when Ali violated it -- but Ali thought he was above all rules and regulations...

Ans 5... I'm not going to match Wilt Chamberlain against every Heavyweight Champion.. Wilt challenged Ali SPECIFICALLY because Ali LACKED an inside game and wasn't a good attacker... Ali had NO body attack... and Ali pulled STRAIGHT BACK from punches, getting floored with left hooks... getting his jaw shattered... and dropping his hands on defense... even little 6'0 X 197 Leon Spinks, with a record of 6-0-1 beat Ali... Ali was ducking ATG Larry Holmes at the time... Ali was made for Wilt.

[
Ans 5... I'm not going to match Wilt Chamberlain against every Heavyweight Champion.. Wilt challenged Ali SPECIFICALLY because Ali LACKED an inside game and wasn't a good attacker... Ali had NO body attack... and Ali pulled STRAIGHT BACK from punches, getting floored with left hooks... getting his jaw shattered... and dropping his hands on defense... even little 6'0 X 197 Leon Spinks, with a record of 6-0-1 beat Ali... Ali was ducking ATG Larry Holmes at the time... Ali was made for Wilt.[/quote]


and then we all woke up and there was no one on boxrec called kalan and the world was again a happy place

Dont forget about Valero-Armstrong????

Kalan wrote:

Ans 5... I'm not going to match Wilt Chamberlain against every Heavyweight Champion.. Wilt challenged Ali SPECIFICALLY because Ali LACKED an inside game and wasn't a good attacker... Ali had NO body attack... and Ali pulled STRAIGHT BACK from punches, getting floored with left hooks... getting his jaw shattered... and dropping his hands on defense... even little 6'0 X 197 Leon Spinks, with a record of 6-0-1 beat Ali... Ali was ducking ATG Larry Holmes at the time... Ali was made for Wilt.

Wilt challenged Ali specifically because Ali was the champion at the time, and the biggest name of all time, and doing so would generate publicity. He could hardly have challenged Primo Carnera, and challenging Ken Norton wouldn't have sold newspapers.

Tommy Gibbons

Mike Gibbons was a great welterweight and later at middleweight.

Tomasino wrote:Tommy Gibbons

Mike Gibbons was a great welterweight and later at middleweight.

I happen to agree that Tommy was the better talent, though most historians give the nod to Mike...and yes Mike campaigned at a lower weight generally.


But Kalan will be able to sort out this unseemly confusion, in his next episode of "Ask Kalan".

Kalan wrote:

1. Joe Frazier at his best (as was demonstrated in real time) would always pose the single greatest style challenge for Ali (Exception noted: Wilt Chamberlain)

2. Aaron Pryor was a good fighter, who was managed to develop a GREAT reputation far exceeding his actual abilities

3. Maura Mina may be the single most under rated LHW of all time.

4. The Charles/Moore fight outcomes were an anomaly and could easily have come out in any other mathematical way. There was little if any certainty to the outcomes purely based on their styles/skills/abilities. Charles indeed did NOT have Moore's number as the outcomes would suggest.

5. The Best Liston would always have his hands full, and likely be easily dominated by the best Ali. (as was demonstrated in real time) (Also: Wilt Chamberlain would also Dominate the likes of Sonny

Ans 1.. Of the boxers Ali faced Holmes was clearly the best and would have beaten the best Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Young, or Norton...

Ans 2... Pryor was limited, but he was a great attacker. He would have been competitive with Duran or Leonard, but wouldn't win...

Ans 3... Mike Gibbons was maybe the most underrated LHW... Charles at his best was too good for Moore at any time. Had him beat.

Ans 4... Liston at his best would beat Ali, but he was well past his best. Ali didn't dominate Liston. The first fight was even on the cards when Liston had to quit due to a severe tear in his left biceps. The commission brought in 7 doctors to examine Liston trying to find one who would say Liston was faking the injury. Every doctor said Liston has a severe muscle tear in his left biceps and couldn't have continued fighting with it. In the rematch Liston was NOT given a count by the referee. Ali could easily have been DQ'd for refusing a referee's order to go to a neutral corner. By the time Walcott finally pushed Ali to a neutral corner Liston was on his feet. You don't get up with a fighter standing over you or running around because he can punch you. The count should have been suspended like it was in Dempsey-Tunney II, when Dempsey delayed going to a neutral corner because it was a brand new rule he wasn't used to. The rule had been in force for decades when Ali violated it -- but Ali thought he was above all rules and regulations...

Ans 5... I'm not going to match Wilt Chamberlain against every Heavyweight Champion.. Wilt challenged Ali SPECIFICALLY because Ali LACKED an inside game and wasn't a good attacker... Ali had NO body attack... and Ali pulled STRAIGHT BACK from punches, getting floored with left hooks... getting his jaw shattered... and dropping his hands on defense... even little 6'0 X 197 Leon Spinks, with a record of 6-0-1 beat Ali... Ali was ducking ATG Larry Holmes at the time... Ali was made for Wilt.

I have marked your answers, let me get back to you soon.

Kalan it looks like..

BoxBuzz wrote:

Tomasino wrote:Tommy Gibbons

Mike Gibbons was a great welterweight and later at middleweight.

I happen to agree that Tommy was the better talent, though most historians give the nod to Mike...and yes Mike campaigned at a lower weight generally.


But Kalan will be able to sort out this unseemly confusion, in his next episode of "Ask Kalan".

I think Mike was better but both were great...I was only correcting the mighty Kalan, as he had Mike as an underrated Lt Heavyweight

YOu and I think of Mike as not a LHW in general, we may be wrong.. but we won't know for sure until Kalan chimes back in with the axual fax.

Tomasino wrote:Tommy Gibbons

Mike Gibbons was a great welterweight and later at middleweight.

Right... Mike Gibbons was a small Middleweight... But Roy Jones was a Heavyweight Champion right? He was undefeated at Heavyweight. But he's not ranked there by anybody.. And Roy would have beaten a lot of Heavyweight Champions just by finessing them like he did Ruiz.. Therefore he's the most underrated Heavyweight - because if you fight one Heavyweight you're a Heavyweight -- at least for that fight and entitled to a ranking.

Gibbons beat several Light Heavyweights, or at least guys who were listed as Light heavyweights.. He beat well known fighters who were bigger than him such as Jack Dillon and Chuck Wiggins, who beat a lot of Light Heavyweights and Heavyweights.. And if you fight one Light Heavyweight you're a Light Heavyweight, at least for that fight and technically entitled to a ranking... But since nobody ranks Mike Gibbons as a Light Heavyweight and he would have beaten a lot of Light Heavyweights - he's the most underrated Light Heavyweight.

Kalan wrote:

Tomasino wrote:Tommy Gibbons

Mike Gibbons was a great welterweight and later at middleweight.

Right... Mike Gibbons was a small Middleweight... But Roy Jones was a Heavyweight Champion right? He was undefeated at Heavyweight. But he's not ranked there by anybody.. And Roy would have beaten a lot of Heavyweight Champions just by finessing them like he did Ruiz.. Therefore he's the most underrated Heavyweight - because if you fight one Heavyweight you're a Heavyweight -- at least for that fight and entitled to a ranking.

Gibbons beat several Light Heavyweights, or at least guys who were listed as Light heavyweights.. He beat well known fighters who were bigger than him such as Jack Dillon and Chuck Wiggins, who beat a lot of Light Heavyweights and Heavyweights.. And if you fight one Light Heavyweight you're a Light Heavyweight, at least for that fight and technically entitled to a ranking... But since nobody ranks Mike Gibbons as a Light Heavyweight and he would have beaten a lot of Light Heavyweights - he's the most underrated Light Heavyweight.

Well that's some first class opining! Now all you gotta do is mention that Tommy was even better at that weight class, and you and I will have a genuine agreement in the making!