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Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 27 Jun 2016, 15:50
by Ambling Alp II
Thought this would be more interesting than the usual heavyweight argument. Not including Ali or Louis for this. Of these 10, who was the best heavyweight?
State your case for someone.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 27 Jun 2016, 16:01
by DannyMCR
Charles Martin.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 27 Jun 2016, 16:22
by SaadOffTheDeck
I think a case can be made for Johnson, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes and Holyfield. I go with Holmes, though I acknowledge that some of the others had greater wins but the brevity of Frazier's prime, Foreman taking off for decades, Holyfield's inconsistency and Johnson's similar resume leaves me with Larry and the win over Mercer and competitive fights with Evander and McCall really lifted him up in my estimation.
In order for me
Holmes
Holyfield
Foreman
Frazier
Johnson
Lewis
Marciano
Liston
Dempsey
Tyson
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 27 Jun 2016, 17:20
by Rexob
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I think a case can be made for Johnson, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes and Holyfield. I go with Holmes, though I acknowledge that some of the others had greater wins but the brevity of Frazier's prime, Foreman taking off for decades, Holyfield's inconsistency and Johnson's similar resume leaves me with Larry and the win over Mercer and competitive fights with Evander and McCall really lifted him up in my estimation.
In order for me
Tyson
Holmes
Holyfield
Foreman
Frazier
Johnson
Lewis
Marciano
Liston
Dempsey
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 27 Jun 2016, 18:07
by Tomasino
Rexob wrote:SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I think a case can be made for Johnson, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes and Holyfield. I go with Holmes, though I acknowledge that some of the others had greater wins but the brevity of Frazier's prime, Foreman taking off for decades, Holyfield's inconsistency and Johnson's similar resume leaves me with Larry and the win over Mercer and competitive fights with Evander and McCall really lifted him up in my estimation.
In order for me
Tyson
Holmes
Holyfield
Foreman
Frazier
Johnson
Lewis
Marciano
Liston
Dempsey
You can't help yourself
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 27 Jun 2016, 18:29
by Kalan
It's close between Larry Holmes and Lennox Lewis -- but I have to go with Lewis from this limited group of Heavyweights.
The Lewis who went against Ray Mercer had a lot of technical problems and flaws.. Lewis was more like Riddick Bowe for a while.. He got hit a lot even after he was with Emmanuel Steward for the Mercer fight... Steward refined Lewis's stance, jab, footwork, and defense with a more technical and scientific approach. Lewis closed glaring defensive holes...and became the "Pugilist Specialist" after a few years with Steward.
Along with his height, weight, reach, strength, and punching power, Lewis was an extremely formidable Heavyweight by the time he met Tyson.
Anthony Joshua is way ahead of Lewis technically considering his number of fights... He's is far more gifted, more intelligent, and asks more questions... AJ worked as a sparring partner for Wladimir Klitschko when he had only 7 professional fights.. The 2 hit it off immediately and Joshua riddled Wladimir with tons of technical questions.. Joshua is the most technically focused Heavyweight since Tunney.. That's going to be more apparent after he can get 6 to 10 rounds each off of Fury, Klitschko, Haye, and Wilder. If he gets 25 to 35 rounds off those guys in the next couple years he'll be more than ready for Luis Ortiz and beat him too ... sometime in 2018 and it will be a great fight.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 27 Jun 2016, 18:37
by SaadOffTheDeck
Tomasino wrote:Rexob wrote:SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I think a case can be made for Johnson, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes and Holyfield. I go with Holmes, though I acknowledge that some of the others had greater wins but the brevity of Frazier's prime, Foreman taking off for decades, Holyfield's inconsistency and Johnson's similar resume leaves me with Larry and the win over Mercer and competitive fights with Evander and McCall really lifted him up in my estimation.
In order for me
Tyson
Holmes
Holyfield
Foreman
Frazier
Johnson
Lewis
Marciano
Liston
Dempsey
You can't help yourself
Tyson is on a tier with Dempsey, Marciano & Liston. Only love rates him higher than any of the other names. I'd have Mike 14th or 15th all time.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 27 Jun 2016, 19:18
by Scypion
I think that prime Liston of the late 50's beats anyone on this list with the possible exception of Tyson and Lewis, but that is JMO.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 27 Jun 2016, 19:27
by SaadOffTheDeck
Scypion wrote:I think that prime Liston of the late 50's beats anyone on this list with the possible exception of Tyson and Lewis, but that is JMO.
He may well have, I don't rate guys on whom I think would win unless their resumes are virtually identical. That's why I rate Sonny over Tyson and Dempsey.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 27 Jun 2016, 19:37
by Cygnus475
It's either Holmes or lewis, no logical argument can be made for anyone else in terms of resume. H2h is a different story.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 28 Jun 2016, 15:36
by PredatorHayds
For me Jack Johnson is the third best heavy ever so he gets my vote.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 28 Jun 2016, 21:25
by elmersalsa
PredatorHayds wrote:For me Jack Johnson is the third best heavy ever so he gets my vote.
Mine, too. Watching the great Jack Johnson on film seems that he was ahead of his time.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 28 Jun 2016, 22:35
by Kalan
The only problem with Johnson is, he let that horrible boxer Willard beat him... and Johnson was a fat tub when that happened... He also let them put him into a 45-round fight... Who agrees to crap like that????
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 04:58
by Crease
Kalan wrote:I have to go with Lewis from this limited group of Heavyweights.
"Limited" heavyweights?
You do realise that the above list is undoubtedly a who's who of the all-time great heavyweight fighters (Ali & Louis as well).
These guys are the best & most dominant fighters in that weight class, think your being a little disrespectful there.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 04:59
by Crease
Rocky Marciano gets my vote.
But all of the fighters get a place in my all-time top 12.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 05:16
by Controversial
Crease wrote:Kalan wrote:I have to go with Lewis from this limited group of Heavyweights.
"Limited" heavyweights?
You do realise that the above list is undoubtedly a who's who of the all-time great heavyweight fighters (Ali & Louis as well).
These guys are the best & most dominant fighters in that weight class, think your being a little disrespectful there.
To be fair I think he meant limited number or selection of heavyweights, not limited in ability.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 06:10
by foxdog1923
Heart says Tyson but my head says Lewis. Lewis is BUT I wouldve liked to see Lewis against a 20 year old Tyson. Actually I wouldve liked to see all the options against a 20 year old Tyson.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 06:43
by keithmoonhangover
Jack Johnson for me.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 07:02
by littlepug
Kalan wrote:It's close between Larry Holmes and Lennox Lewis -- but I have to go with Lewis from this limited group of Heavyweights.
The Lewis who went against Ray Mercer had a lot of technical problems and flaws.. Lewis was more like Riddick Bowe for a while.. He got hit a lot even after he was with Emmanuel Steward for the Mercer fight... Steward refined Lewis's stance, jab, footwork, and defense with a more technical and scientific approach. Lewis closed glaring defensive holes...and became the "Pugilist Specialist" after a few years with Steward.
Along with his height, weight, reach, strength, and punching power, Lewis was an extremely formidable Heavyweight by the time he met Tyson.
Anthony Joshua is way ahead of Lewis technically considering his number of fights... He's is far more gifted, more intelligent, and asks more questions... AJ worked as a sparring partner for Wladimir Klitschko when he had only 7 professional fights.. The 2 hit it off immediately and Joshua riddled Wladimir with tons of technical questions.. Joshua is the most technically focused Heavyweight since Tunney.. That's going to be more apparent after he can get 6 to 10 rounds each off of Fury, Klitschko, Haye, and Wilder. If he gets 25 to 35 rounds off those guys in the next couple years he'll be more than ready for Luis Ortiz and beat him too ... sometime in 2018 and it will be a great fight.
Joshua ahead of lewis technically and more gifted ? Lewis is one of the most gifted heavies ever, Joshua is slightly more gifted than say Bruno and the physically bigger he gets (and he will as he gets older) the worse he will get. Anyway my vote goes to holmes.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 08:15
by PredatorHayds
elmersalsa wrote:PredatorHayds wrote:For me Jack Johnson is the third best heavy ever so he gets my vote.
Mine, too. Watching the great Jack Johnson on film seems that he was ahead of his time.
Agreed. I feel his whole style and way of fighting was 30 years ahead of its time.
He also had one of the biggest fights in history which he won.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 10:26
by Ambling Alp II
You could make a decent case for most of these guys. How about Frazier and Holyfield?
Joe Frazier: Only losses were to Foreman and Ali. Johnson, Dempsey, Liston, Foreman, Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson all had losses to worse opponents.
Frazier biggest wins (Bonavena, Quarry, Ellis, Bugner, and of course Ali) is as good as anyone's on the poll.
Evander Holyfield- Only relevant losses are to Bowe and Moorer. Fought a great fight in defeat in the first loss to Bowe.
Holyfield's Biggest wins (Bowe, Tyson, as well as guys like Thomas, Dokes, Moorer, and Mercer) are right up there as well.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 11:43
by Tony1244
This was really hard to do with different eras and all. But I'll take a stab at it.
Holmes
Lewis
Foreman
Johnson
Frazier
Marciano
Liston
Holyfield
Tyson
Dempsey
I really didn't think I'd have Tyson that low, but there's a lot of competition in this list.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 12:01
by Syntax Error
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I think a case can be made for Johnson, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes and Holyfield. I go with Holmes, though I acknowledge that some of the others had greater wins but the brevity of Frazier's prime, Foreman taking off for decades, Holyfield's inconsistency and Johnson's similar resume leaves me with Larry and the win over Mercer and competitive fights with Evander and McCall really lifted him up in my estimation.
In order for me
Holmes
Holyfield
Foreman
Frazier
Johnson
Lewis
Marciano
Liston
Dempsey
Tyson
I think Saad has smashed it there.
Holmes for me too.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 12:01
by Kalan
littlepug wrote:Kalan wrote:It's close between Larry Holmes and Lennox Lewis -- but I have to go with Lewis from this limited group of Heavyweights.
The Lewis who went against Ray Mercer had a lot of technical problems and flaws.. Lewis was more like Riddick Bowe for a while.. He got hit a lot even after he was with Emmanuel Steward for the Mercer fight... Steward refined Lewis's stance, jab, footwork, and defense with a more technical and scientific approach. Lewis closed glaring defensive holes...and became the "Pugilist Specialist" after a few years with Steward.
Along with his height, weight, reach, strength, and punching power, Lewis was an extremely formidable Heavyweight by the time he met Tyson.
Anthony Joshua is way ahead of Lewis technically considering his number of fights... He's is far more gifted, more intelligent, and asks more questions... AJ worked as a sparring partner for Wladimir Klitschko when he had only 7 professional fights.. The 2 hit it off immediately and Joshua riddled Wladimir with tons of technical questions.. Joshua is the most technically focused Heavyweight since Tunney.. That's going to be more apparent after he can get 6 to 10 rounds each off of Fury, Klitschko, Haye, and Wilder. If he gets 25 to 35 rounds off those guys in the next couple years he'll be more than ready for Luis Ortiz and beat him too ... sometime in 2018 and it will be a great fight.
Joshua ahead of lewis technically and more gifted ? Lewis is one of the most gifted heavies ever, Joshua is slightly more gifted than say Bruno and the physically bigger he gets (and he will as he gets older) the worse he will get. Anyway my vote goes to holmes.
Joshua was 248 over a year ago vs Love and 249 vs Cornish... He was 243 (much lighter) for 255lb Breazeale on Saturday... Joshua keeps a very close eye on poundage. Lewis was 227 for Razor Ruddock and 250 for Tyson.. I'm not sure weight was an overwhelming concern of Lewis's and he put on weight between fights.. Joshua might put on weight, but with the weight must come more speed and strength otherwise it's useless to him and he won't put in on.. Often in your 30's your body expands a bit and you add girth -- but it didn't happen for Hopkins and many others who are gym rats... I don't see Joshua getting much bigger either...
As for the Bruno comment.. Bruno did NOT do flexibility training and agility training.. He WASN’T fascinated by the science of Boxing.. He was a raw swinger and an unmissable target.. You could see every punch he threw and it took them a long time to get there.. Joshua has the discipline of Wladimir Klitschko combined with the curiosity and intelligence of Gene Tunney.
Larry Holmes had a serious pot belly for the last 15 years of his pro career.. He was a brilliant boxer flummoxing Ray Mercer at 42 and coming close to beating Oliver McCall at 45.. But from his pot belly and physique you’d think he never get past the 5th.
And you have to get off Lewis’s dick. He got stretched by McCall and Rahman and was losing on all scorecards to VK after 6.
Re: Of these, who was the best heavyweight?
Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 12:30
by littlepug
Kalan wrote:littlepug wrote:Kalan wrote:It's close between Larry Holmes and Lennox Lewis -- but I have to go with Lewis from this limited group of Heavyweights.
The Lewis who went against Ray Mercer had a lot of technical problems and flaws.. Lewis was more like Riddick Bowe for a while.. He got hit a lot even after he was with Emmanuel Steward for the Mercer fight... Steward refined Lewis's stance, jab, footwork, and defense with a more technical and scientific approach. Lewis closed glaring defensive holes...and became the "Pugilist Specialist" after a few years with Steward.
Along with his height, weight, reach, strength, and punching power, Lewis was an extremely formidable Heavyweight by the time he met Tyson.
Anthony Joshua is way ahead of Lewis technically considering his number of fights... He's is far more gifted, more intelligent, and asks more questions... AJ worked as a sparring partner for Wladimir Klitschko when he had only 7 professional fights.. The 2 hit it off immediately and Joshua riddled Wladimir with tons of technical questions.. Joshua is the most technically focused Heavyweight since Tunney.. That's going to be more apparent after he can get 6 to 10 rounds each off of Fury, Klitschko, Haye, and Wilder. If he gets 25 to 35 rounds off those guys in the next couple years he'll be more than ready for Luis Ortiz and beat him too ... sometime in 2018 and it will be a great fight.
Joshua ahead of lewis technically and more gifted ? Lewis is one of the most gifted heavies ever, Joshua is slightly more gifted than say Bruno and the physically bigger he gets (and he will as he gets older) the worse he will get. Anyway my vote goes to holmes.
Joshua was 248 over a year ago vs Love and 249 vs Cornish... He was 243 (much lighter) for 255lb Breazeale on Saturday... Joshua keeps a very close eye on poundage. Lewis was 227 for Razor Ruddock and 250 for Tyson.. I'm not sure weight was an overwhelming concern of Lewis's and he put on weight between fights.. Joshua might put on weight, but with the weight must come more speed and strength otherwise it's useless to him and he won't put in on.. Often in your 30's your body expands a bit and you add girth -- but it didn't happen for Hopkins and many others who are gym rats... I don't see Joshua getting much bigger either...
As for the Bruno comment.. Bruno did NOT do flexibility training and agility training.. He WASN’T fascinated by the science of Boxing.. He was a raw swinger and an unmissable target.. You could see every punch he threw and it took them a long time to get there.. Joshua has the discipline of Wladimir Klitschko combined with the curiosity and intelligence of Gene Tunney.
Larry Holmes had a serious pot belly for the last 15 years of his pro career.. He was a brilliant boxer flummoxing Ray Mercer at 42 and coming close to beating Oliver McCall at 45.. But from his pot belly and physique you’d think he never get past the 5th.
And you have to get off Lewis’s dick. He got stretched by McCall and Rahman and was losing on all scorecards to VK after 6.
Well your certainly impressed by Joshua, I'm yet to be convinced, time will tell...