BoxRec

Some interesting thoughts.

Boxing is one of the easiest sports to fix so a stupid argument in my opinion. Also where did $10,000 come from? The threat of violence is a good motivator to throw a fight where big money can be won.

What happened in Ali-Liston 1 is just like Cooper said... Liston had a severely torn left biceps and couldn't retract his jab well... he couldn't get any snap on his left hook... The 6th round went very badly for Liston with his injured arm. You don't want to make a hero out of your opponent by letting him beat you up and knock you out after you're badly injured... The best thing is to quit, because pretty soon as your arm gets worse, your chances of winning are like winning the lottery... You have almost no chance to land a lucky shot with your good hand ... so get out of there and try another day.

What happened in Ali-Liston 2 is this.. Liston was decked by a sharp right to the cheek.. Ali refused to go to a neutral corner.. If your opponent is standing over you or running around the ring instead of going to a neutral corner you WAIT to get up!!! ... They're supposed to suspend the count (like they did in Dempsey-Tunney 2) until Ali obeys the referee's order and goes to a neutral corner... Once Walcott finally pushed Ali to a neutral corner Liston was already on his feet.. The fight resumed without Liston getting ANY count.. While Liston easily ducked all of Ali's follow up punches (showing he wasn't hurt by the knockdown punch) Ring Magazine editor Nat Fleischer screamed at Walcott.. Walcott didn't call time, but went over to Fleischer at ringside to see what he was yelling about.. Fleischer screamed.. "Liston was down for 10. The fight's over." ... Now, according to the rules, only the referee can count a boxer out.. The elapsed time a boxer is on the canvas doesn't matter -- he's out on the referee's count of 10... Ali-Liston 2 should have continued because Liston didn't get a count and he was obviously unhurt.

They made Liston the fall guy.. He was accused of "faking the knockdown." His license to box was revoked in all 50 states.. Liston insisted he didn't fake the knockdown.. "I never got a count.. It's not wise for me to get up with Ali standing over me and running around. I need to put one hand on the canvas to get up and he could punch me.. I got up when Walcott pushed him into a neutral corner.. If I intended to throw the fight, why would I resume fighting?"

The Boxing Commission... "That's irrelevant...we think your faked the knockdown on a very light hit." ... They screwed up and blamed it on Liston.

Kalan wrote: What happened in Ali-Liston 2 is this.. Liston was decked by a sharp right to the cheek.. .

Kalan, not sure what you're up to, but this statement alone is enough for me to recognize you have moments of lucidity.


And....I don't think I disagree with the rest of this statement.....it's as good a set of assumptions as I've ever seen regarding this fight.
But I do have to say....as much as it may make sense. Where's the proof? Regarding Liston's statements on this subject?

You begin with the words "What happened in Ali Liston 1"....(Actually Liston Clay) "was just like Cooper said." So I know the source on that one.

Then you go on to say "What happened in Ali-Liston 2 is this"

And you go on to espouse some interesting stuff in your second paragraph...and you quote Liston......where did you get that info? I think I've seen that some where....what's the source?

The sources were Sonny Liston and Willie Reddish. Reddish was with Liston when he talked to several Boxing Commissions trying to get his license reinstated. That is roughly what they had to say. They both talked. The commissions did their rulings later when they weren't present. Liston often went on his own. He never quit. He fought in Europe and kept going until he was finally reinstated in Nevada in 1968, 3 years after he was banned. Having his license revoked was one of the worst injustices in the History of Boxing. I'm certain the rulings would have been different if Liston were a white man, or If something like this happened today.

I am going to guess that those are pages from Henry Cooper's autobiography ?
If so,what did he have to say about the few minutes rest he had between round four and five with his first fight with Muhammad Ali ?

Caractacus... The Clay vs Cooper fight is on Youtube.. One odd thing is that Clay---as Ali was known at that time---doesn't seem a lot stronger compared to Cooper who he had 22 pounds and a couple inches of height on.. The other thing is there was no glove changed or minutes of additional rest given.. Clay got between 64 and 67 seconds rest from what I gather from the video. I couldn't hear the bell ending round 4, but the announcer said Clay was hit about 2 seconds before the end of the round.

Angelo Dundee was one of the biggest BSers ever. He said for years that he bought Ali extra time to clear his head by opening a seam on his glove and demanding a new glove.. That would make Dundee a quick thinker responsible for allowing Clay to remain undefeated that night and securing the shot at Liston.. The video proves that never happened.

Caractacus wrote:I am going to guess that those are pages from Henry Cooper's autobiography ?
If so,what did he have to say about the few minutes rest he had between round four and five with his first fight with Muhammad Ali ?

I'll have a look later, evil fiend. My guess will be that he recycles the self serving time delay myth but can't honestly remember. The book is from the early 70s and he is overall very frank, especially about his reasons for not fighting Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier.

Liston was controlled by the mob so is it beyond the realms of possibility that something fishy happened? The over theatrical rolling around by Liston looks fake as hell. If Liston was so prepared to fight on why didn't he protest at the stoppage, he just stood there and walked off. No way that fight was a legit one in my opinion.

mAY I land my kinky machine ?

Controversial wrote:Liston was controlled by the mob so is it beyond the realms of possibility that something fishy happened? The over theatrical rolling around by Liston looks fake as hell. If Liston was so prepared to fight on why didn't he protest at the stoppage, he just stood there and walked off. No way that fight was a legit one in my opinion.

I agree the knockdown looked a little theatrical... Maybe Liston was trying to convince Ali that he was hurt... Ali attacked Liston with a barrage of punches after Liston got up, but Ali missed every shot.. Maybe Liston was trying to set Ali up for a big punch right there.. When Walcott told Liston he was down for 10 seconds Liston was in shock.. LIke Walcott, Sonny probably didn't know exactly what the rule was right then.. How could he launch a protest?

I immediately knew Walcott screwed up.. But if you're directly involved in something like that it blows you away.. Liston was stunned.. He was used to a lot of negative things happening to him...such as, "The court sentences you to 5 years in prison." ... It was another day at the salt mines for Sonny.

Here's a question ... If Liston wanted to TANK the fight, why wouldn't he wait for Walcott to push Ali to a neutral corner and come back and count him out??? ... Why would Liston get up as soon as Walcott gained control of Ali and shoved him into a neutral corner... If you're intent on losing the fight you'd wait for the referee to count you out... You're not going to get up, square off to fight, and duck a lot of follow up punches.

Kalan wrote:Here's a question ... If Liston wanted to TANK the fight, why wouldn't he wait for Walcott to push Ali to a neutral corner and come back and count him out??? ... Why would Liston get up as soon as Walcott gained control of Ali and shoved him into a neutral corner... If you're intent on losing the fight you'd wait for the referee to count you out... You're not going to get up, square off to fight, and duck a lot of follow up punches.

Very good points Kalan. Walcott definitely screwed up and should have ignored Fleischer.
Liston was going to get a pasting from Ali anyway - so ultimately he was saved from that.

Kalan wrote:Here's a question ... If Liston wanted to TANK the fight, why wouldn't he wait for Walcott to push Ali to a neutral corner and come back and count him out??? ... Why would Liston get up as soon as Walcott gained control of Ali and shoved him into a neutral corner... If you're intent on losing the fight you'd wait for the referee to count you out... You're not going to get up, square off to fight, and duck a lot of follow up punches.

Personally I think he was listening to the ringside count and when he heard 10 he stood up thinking the fight was over. When Walcott told them to fight on, your right he was as confused as hell as he thought he had lost and then didn't know what to do. No one knew what was going on. No way could he fake two knockouts in the same round but thats what he had to try and do so let Ali throw punches at him without reply, as soon as a half decent one landed he would've fallen to the floor again for another Oscar winning performance. Walcotts' balls up gave Liston the perfect cover story and excuse, after all whose going to admit to throwing a title fight like that? I bet they made a fortune on that fight.

Only Liston knew whether he threw the fight or not. If he did, he had his reasons and we'll never know for sure. Walcott still screwed up though.
Either way it was nothing to do with Ali. Ali wanted the fight to continue so he could give Sonny a beating.
There is a famous photograph of him standing over Liston and saying something like "Get up and fight you bum".

Liston was controlled by the mob so is it beyond the realms of possibility that something fishy happened? The over theatrical rolling around by Liston looks fake as hell. If Liston was so prepared to fight on why didn't he protest at the stoppage, he just stood there and walked off. No way that fight was a legit one in my opinion.

The idea of Sonny being intimidated by the Mob is definitely a possibility....this was arguably one of the peak periods of their influence when they were controlling a whole range of sectors - not just boxing - and they were incredibly violent and ruthless.

It is worth bearing mind that the Kennedy brothers had (earlier) been so concerned about the influence-reach of organised crime that they effectively made it a key part of their administration's work.

There was a general consensus that organised crime was beginning to destroy America from within.

I can't help thinking that Sonny - with his own difficult personal life - had somehow been helped by the Mob in the past but was required to pay the debt back as when and how they wished. Liston's death in Las Vegas also remains highly suspicious.

SteveO wrote:Only Liston knew whether he threw the fight or not. If he did, he had his reasons and we'll never know for sure. Walcott still screwed up though.
Either way it was nothing to do with Ali. Ali wanted the fight to continue so he could give Sonny a beating.
There is a famous photograph of him standing over Liston and saying something like "Get up and fight you bum".

For sure, no way was Ali complicit in it

Controversial wrote:

Kalan wrote:Here's a question ... If Liston wanted to TANK the fight, why wouldn't he wait for Walcott to push Ali to a neutral corner and come back and count him out??? ... Why would Liston get up as soon as Walcott gained control of Ali and shoved him into a neutral corner... If you're intent on losing the fight you'd wait for the referee to count you out... You're not going to get up, square off to fight, and duck a lot of follow up punches.

Personally I think he was listening to the ringside count and when he heard 10 he stood up thinking the fight was over. When Walcott told them to fight on, your right he was as confused as hell as he thought he had lost and then didn't know what to do. No one knew what was going on. No way could he fake two knockouts in the same round but thats what he had to try and do so let Ali throw punches at him without reply, as soon as a half decent one landed he would've fallen to the floor again for another Oscar winning performance. Walcotts' balls up gave Liston the perfect cover story and excuse, after all whose going to admit to throwing a title fight like that? I bet they made a fortune on that fight.

There's a MASSIVE problem with EVERYTHING you're trying to insinuate... There was bedlam in the place because Ali was running around and refusing to go to a neutral corner... If Walcott and Ali couldn't hear the count HOW could Liston??? Listen to that video closely and you don't hear ANY count... And Listen DID NOT wait for 10 and then get up late -- such as Charles Martin and Willie Monroe did.. Liston was on the canvas for at least 12 because Ali wasn't going to a neutral corner... AND boxers are taught NOT to get up until your opponent heads for a neutral corner as the rules state.. MANY times you see boxers violate this teaching.. They jump up and get hit again by an overly excited and oblivious opponent who didn't head for the corner.. That's why you stay down and protect yourself at all times if your opponent is standing over you or running around like a mad man ignoring the referee. If you watch the video, Liston gets up when Walcott gets control of Ali. Normally the count is suspended if a boxer scoring a knockdown behaves like that. That didn't happen in Ali-Liston 2 -- and it was not corrected immediately because Lewiston Maine is the sticks -- and not a bastion of knowledgeable boxing commissioners.

You say Liston was waiting for Ali to hit him again so he could take another pratfall... Then why was he ducking all the follow up punches so expertly??? ... Why would he take another hit and go down again??? He made the overexcited Ali miss every follow-up punch. Liston an Ali had

The Boxing Establishment quickly made Liston the fall guy -- and that cleaned up their mess... "You faked a knockdown" They put it all on Sonny the ex-con

Kalan wrote:

Controversial wrote:

Kalan wrote:Here's a question ... If Liston wanted to TANK the fight, why wouldn't he wait for Walcott to push Ali to a neutral corner and come back and count him out??? ... Why would Liston get up as soon as Walcott gained control of Ali and shoved him into a neutral corner... If you're intent on losing the fight you'd wait for the referee to count you out... You're not going to get up, square off to fight, and duck a lot of follow up punches.

Personally I think he was listening to the ringside count and when he heard 10 he stood up thinking the fight was over. When Walcott told them to fight on, your right he was as confused as hell as he thought he had lost and then didn't know what to do. No one knew what was going on. No way could he fake two knockouts in the same round but thats what he had to try and do so let Ali throw punches at him without reply, as soon as a half decent one landed he would've fallen to the floor again for another Oscar winning performance. Walcotts' balls up gave Liston the perfect cover story and excuse, after all whose going to admit to throwing a title fight like that? I bet they made a fortune on that fight.

There's a MASSIVE problem with EVERYTHING you're trying to insinuate... There was bedlam in the place because Ali was running around and refusing to go to a neutral corner... If Walcott and Ali couldn't hear the count HOW could Liston??? Listen to that video closely and you don't hear ANY count... And Listen DID NOT wait for 10 and then get up late -- such as Charles Martin and Willie Monroe did.. Liston was on the canvas for at least 12 because Ali wasn't going to a neutral corner... AND boxers are taught NOT to get up until your opponent heads for a neutral corner as the rules state.. MANY times you see boxers violate this teaching.. They jump up and get hit again by an overly excited and oblivious opponent who didn't head for the corner.. That's why you stay down and protect yourself at all times if your opponent is standing over you or running around like a mad man ignoring the referee. If you watch the video, Liston gets up when Walcott gets control of Ali. Normally the count is suspended if a boxer scoring a knockdown behaves like that. That didn't happen in Ali-Liston 2 -- and it was not corrected immediately because Lewiston Maine is the sticks -- and not a bastion of knowledgeable boxing commissioners.

You say Liston was waiting for Ali to hit him again so he could take another pratfall... Then why was he ducking all the follow up punches so expertly??? ... Why would he take another hit and go down again??? He made the overexcited Ali miss every follow-up punch. Liston an Ali had

The Boxing Establishment quickly made Liston the fall guy -- and that cleaned up their mess... "You faked a knockdown" They put it all on Sonny the ex-con

My version makes far more sense. So what if you can't hear the count, doesn't mean there wasn't one. However If you turn the volume up loud you can hear the canvas being banged so I don't buy that.

It would be interesting to hear your version had the same result happened in reverse, I think everyone knows you wouldn't defend Ali. Had the reverse happened I would be as suspicious of Ali, it was one of the worst acting jobs you can see. Liston wasn't the brightest spark and his mob ties are well known, as you said yourself Liston and Walcott didn't know the rules. Lucky Liston had the perfect cover story.

Controversial wrote:

Kalan wrote:

Controversial wrote:
Personally I think he was listening to the ringside count and when he heard 10 he stood up thinking the fight was over. When Walcott told them to fight on, your right he was as confused as hell as he thought he had lost and then didn't know what to do. No one knew what was going on. No way could he fake two knockouts in the same round but thats what he had to try and do so let Ali throw punches at him without reply, as soon as a half decent one landed he would've fallen to the floor again for another Oscar winning performance. Walcotts' balls up gave Liston the perfect cover story and excuse, after all whose going to admit to throwing a title fight like that? I bet they made a fortune on that fight.

There's a MASSIVE problem with EVERYTHING you're trying to insinuate... There was bedlam in the place because Ali was running around and refusing to go to a neutral corner... If Walcott and Ali couldn't hear the count HOW could Liston??? Listen to that video closely and you don't hear ANY count... And Listen DID NOT wait for 10 and then get up late -- such as Charles Martin and Willie Monroe did.. Liston was on the canvas for at least 12 because Ali wasn't going to a neutral corner... AND boxers are taught NOT to get up until your opponent heads for a neutral corner as the rules state.. MANY times you see boxers violate this teaching.. They jump up and get hit again by an overly excited and oblivious opponent who didn't head for the corner.. That's why you stay down and protect yourself at all times if your opponent is standing over you or running around like a mad man ignoring the referee. If you watch the video, Liston gets up when Walcott gets control of Ali. Normally the count is suspended if a boxer scoring a knockdown behaves like that. That didn't happen in Ali-Liston 2 -- and it was not corrected immediately because Lewiston Maine is the sticks -- and not a bastion of knowledgeable boxing commissioners.

You say Liston was waiting for Ali to hit him again so he could take another pratfall... Then why was he ducking all the follow up punches so expertly??? ... Why would he take another hit and go down again??? He made the overexcited Ali miss every follow-up punch. Liston an Ali had

The Boxing Establishment quickly made Liston the fall guy -- and that cleaned up their mess... "You faked a knockdown" They put it all on Sonny the ex-con

My version makes far more sense. So what if you can't hear the count, doesn't mean there wasn't one. However If you turn the volume up loud you can hear the canvas being banged so I don't buy that.

It would be interesting to hear your version had the same result happened in reverse, I think everyone knows you wouldn't defend Ali. Had the reverse happened I would be as suspicious of Ali, it was one of the worst acting jobs you can see. Liston wasn't the brightest spark and his mob ties are well known, as you said yourself Liston and Walcott didn't know the rules. Lucky Liston had the perfect cover story.

I defended Ali when he were the victim and the wronged party -- like he WAS on occasion... I defended Ali all the time on the draft and Viet Nam War.. I was a vet against the Viet Nam War and Ali's stand was very courageous. Ali was a hero to us anti-war activists. We loved the man. But just because a man is a prince and a champion in the cause of peace, doesn't mean he's perfect in all areas.. Ali was wrong for throwing out the rule book and refusing to go to a neutral corner in Ali-Liston 2.. NOBODY is above the law.. YOUR version makes NO sense because WHEN have you EVER seen a boxer counted out by the timekeeper when his opponent refused to go to a neutral corner??? ... I have seen that type of behavior twice in amateur fights and both boxers running around were DQ'd... I can't remember a professional fight where one boxer refused to go to the neutral corner for the ENTIRE 10-COUNT in any other fight I've ever seen... Have you??? ... What do YOU think would have been fair for Liston in this case???

It was just pretty chaotic...and that's that. What truly happened at that time might be...eh.....chaos.

And...somewhere there is a factual set of circumstances that manifest.....but it's never going be able to be perfectly solved.


Your guess is not unfathomable. But at the end of the day....that's what it is, a guess. Even if it's an educated one.



I don't think Liston was under any illusions that he was going to beat Ali that night. Even if every rule was observed, etiquette followed, and sensibility reigned supreme.

Kalan wrote:
I defended Ali when he were the victim and the wronged party -- like he WAS on occasion... I defended Ali all the time on the draft and Viet Nam War.. I was a vet against the Viet Nam War and Ali's stand was very courageous. Ali was a hero to us anti-war activists. We loved the man. But just because a man is a prince and a champion in the cause of peace, doesn't mean he's perfect in all areas.. Ali was wrong for throwing out the rule book and refusing to go to a neutral corner in Ali-Liston 2.. NOBODY is above the law.. YOUR version makes NO sense because WHEN have you EVER seen a boxer counted out by the timekeeper when his opponent refused to go to a neutral corner??? ... I have seen that type of behavior twice in amateur fights and both boxers running around were DQ'd... I can't remember a professional fight where one boxer refused to go to the neutral corner for the ENTIRE 10-COUNT in any other fight I've ever seen... Have you??? ... What do YOU think would have been fair for Liston in this case???

Exactly you proved my point. No praise for wins or his boxing achievements, they were all mismatches or lucky according to you. I asked you weeks ago what made Ali a great fighter, as you claimed he was in one post, and none of your replies had anything to do with boxing, just his personality, charisma and political views. That says it all to me.

Mistakes happen in boxing all the time, Walcott had a nightmare and completely cocked it up, did he ever referee another fight, I'm not sure he did although I might be wrong on that, certainly no title fights. Do I think Liston was knocked out, no. He heard a 10 count and stood up thinking he had lost. Making sure he done a fancy extra roll onto the canvas for affect. It was chaos, no one knew what was going on and he had to ad-lib the rest of the fight as he couldn't work out why Walcott said to continue. Liston even stopped and looked at the timekeeper after he stood up, he had all his faculties about him. Liston ducked below the waist and at that point Walcott stopped it and without a whimper Liston walked off. No protest, no anger, nothing. Yet he claims Ali, who almost never knocked anyone out with one punch, knocked him down with a punch that Liston ordinarily would've sneered at. Sorry no doubt in my mind, a fix. I take it you never read the FBI files released a few years ago which gives reason why they suspected foul play?

I always thought the punch that downed Liston was legit. The 'how many other fighters did he KO in 1?' argument is silly. How many names did Nunn KO in 1, other than Kalambay? And Kalambay had a great chin too. How many names did Hill KO in 1, other than Tiozzo? And Tiozzo had a great chin too.

Tuan_Jim wrote:I always thought the punch that downed Liston was legit. The 'how many other fighters did he KO in 1?' argument is silly. How many names did Nunn KO in 1, other than Kalambay? And Kalambay had a great chin too. How many names did Hill KO in 1, other than Tiozzo? And Tiozzo had a great chin too.

Fair point but they looked legit, Listons didn't. When you add in the mob ties and FBI reports suspecting a fix then it adds another dimension to it. Ali had him beat no matter what and Liston knew it. I know not everyone agrees with this line of thinking but I happen to.

Controversial wrote: Yet he claims Ali, who almost never knocked anyone out with one punch, knocked him down with a punch that Liston ordinarily would've sneered at. Sorry no doubt in my mind, a fix. I take it you never read the FBI files released a few years ago which gives reason why they suspected foul play?

Liston never claimed he was knocked out by Ali... That's a lie... He took a sharp right and went down... It was a well timed punch with good force on it... NO CRIME in Heavyweight Boxing getting hit in the head and going down is it??? ... Liston than patiently waited for mad man Ali to head to a neutral corner... If a crazy man is standing over you and running around the ring -- and you KNOW about the neutral corner rule that's Ai is violating, then you wait for the referee to gain control.. You DON'T think you'll have to wait the full count -- but nobody is counting over you because the referee is busy trying to control Ali.. Who is breaking the rules in that situation...Liston or Ali???? -- I know you won't answer that.

And the FBI gets it WRONG all the time... J Edgar Hoover called Dr. Martin Luther King a "Communist sympathizer and the mort notorious liar in America" ... They also screwed up before 9/11 and failed to follow up on leads that immigrants tied to Islamic militant radical groups were spending big money on simulated flying lessons for Boing 747 aircraft -- but they expressly DIDN'T WANT any lessons on how to LAND the aircraft... I think some of those guys WANTED to be caught by the FBI.. Because as much as they believed in 72 virgins as their reward they didn't want to die young. The FBI ignored those screaming leads.

And I do think Ali was a great fighter.. Good rhythm, good feet, good speed, good timing, good jab, and good right counter.. Like every boxer he had his strong points and his weak ones... Does being a great fighter mean Ali gets to ignore the neutral corner rule with impunity???? You won't answer that either.