BoxRec

Please, if you are of the mind, feel free to challenge, correct, “spitball,” or educated me.

John L. Sullivan
James J. Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons
James J. Jeffries
Elimination Fight: Jack Root v. Marvin Hart
Marvin Hart
Tommy Burns
Jack Johnson
Jess Willard
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney
Elimination Fight: Max Schmeling v. Jack Sharkey
Max Schmeling
Jack Sharkey
Primo Carnera
Max Baer
James J. Braddock
Joe Louis
Elimination Fight: Ezzard Charles v. Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Rocky Marciano
Elimination Fight: Floyd Patterson v. Archie Moore
Floyd Patterson
Ingemar Johansson
Floyd Patterson
Sonny Liston
Cassius Clay (AKA Muhammad Ali)
Elimination Fight: Joe Frazier v. Jimmy Ellis
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Muhammad Ali
Leon Spinks
Muhammad Ali
Elimination Fight: Larry Holmes v. Ken Norton
Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Mike Tyson
James “Buster” Douglas
Evander Holyfield
Riddick Bowe
Evander Holyfield
Michael Moore
George Foreman
Shannon Briggs
Lennox Lewis
Hasim Rahman
Lennox Lewis
Elimination Fight: Wladimir Klitschko v. David Haye
Wladimir Klitschko
Tyson Fury

It's lineal and the concept is way outdated.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It's lineal and the concept is way outdated.

Thank you for the correction "lineal" - not sure if I can fix that - "outdated" your the kind the list was meant for "it is the only list that counts" it can't become outdated -

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It's lineal and the concept is way outdated.

I was able to correct it - thank you!

APerno wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It's lineal and the concept is way outdated.

Thank you for the correction "lineal" - not sure if I can fix that - "outdated" your the kind the list was meant for "it is the only list that counts" it can't become outdated -

It is, so many fragmented belts with them not facing each other it just ends up being opinion like anything else.

Agree and disagree with Saad. It is what it is. Value it our not. And I suppose it's getting harder to track.

But it's hard to justify that you are a champ, if you haven't beaten a champ.

Champ having a different meaning than beltholder. Or "currently most prolific and engaging and successful combatant in pugilism."

How could Holmes/Norton be for the lineal title when Leon Spinks had the claim at the time?

Wlad never beat anyone of note.

But he's 6'6'', north of 240 with big rippling muscles - ergo he pulverises every heavyweight in history, even though he was knocked out by some awful fighters and subsequently whenever he has been met with some movement & even a whiff of a threat he is reduced to a fencing wrestling embarrassment.

I'd be happy to have the claim vacant since Lewis retired. They tried to make Vitali/Corrie lineal but it didn't seem to take, then it was Wlad/Chagaev, same problem, then Wlad again vs Povetkin in the worst fight in history (until his fight with Fury). Added problem that Wlad is obviously a weaker man than his brother. I don't see any legitimate claim since LL.

Wlad was the clear number one by miles when his brother retired (he already had the much better resume anyway), and the Povetkin fight was very one-sided.

Do you not acknowledge lineage just because Wlad didn't have all the alphabet titles?

Wlad was clearly the top guy. Hard to pinpoint a definitive fight when it happened. You could say ibragimov. That's my whole point, it's outdated.

crusader wrote:Wlad was the clear number one by miles when his brother retired (he already had the much better resume anyway), and the Povetkin fight was very one-sided.

Do you not acknowledge lineage just because Wlad didn't have all the alphabet titles?

The alphabet titles have made themselves irrelevant. There just wasn't a genuinely meaningful fight to crown Wlad. And I don't understand why he wasn't disqualified for his tactics versus Povetkin. Henry Akinwande was thrown out for less.

I never watched that.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Wlad never beat anyone of note.

Who didn't he beat?

He was hands down the top HW for multiple years and barely lost a round in defeating leading contenders like Haye, Chagaev, Ibragimov, Pulev, and Povetkin, with some of them having a case for being the #2 guy behind him. If a 'meaningful' fight is simply one that shows clearly who the top fighter is, it wasn't needed in Wlad's case because his dominance was clear.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I never watched that.

I wouldn't advise you ever do so. Wlad initiates 300+ holds.

crusader wrote:He was hands down the top HW for multiple years and barely lost a round in defeating leading contenders like Haye, Chagaev, Ibragimov, Pulev, and Povetkin, with some of them having a case for being the #2 guy behind him. If a 'meaningful' fight is simply one that shows clearly who the top fighter is, it wasn't needed in Wlad's case because his dominance was clear.

With all those names you can ask: and who did they beat?

The answer is usually Nikolay Valuev and/or John Ruiz, or a washed up middle aged American ex-champ.

Wlad's resume still made him the clear #1 HW for multiple years. From 2012 until his last fight, who had a stronger claim to being the man of the division than him? How about during Vitali's 4 years off?

Wlad unarguably established dominance in my view, and should be considered a legitimate lineal champ if that's the achievment those titles are supposed to capture. If they're purely about order, and fighters can only be lineal champions by beating the reigning lineal champ of the division, then Lennox will be the last HW lineal champ in history, unless he comes out of retirement and is beaten. Further, if lineal titles are order-based in that way they're no longer particularly credible in my opinion, because today a fighter can just win the title and sit on it, jinking leading challengers and facing much softer opponents without any obligations to meet.

crusader wrote:Wlad's resume still made him the clear #1 HW for multiple years. From 2012 until his last fight, who had a stronger claim to being the man of the division than him? How about during Vitali's 4 years off?

Wlad unarguably established dominance in my view, and should be considered a legitimate lineal champ if that's the achievment those titles are supposed to capture. If they're purely about order, and fighters can only be lineal champions by beating the reigning lineal champ of the division, then Lennox will be the last HW lineal champ in history, unless he comes out of retirement and is beaten.

Surely Tunney would be the last then.

Whoops....of course it wouldn't be Lewis then.

BitPlayer wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Wlad never beat anyone of note.

Who didn't he beat?

He lost to the same level he beat. Average to mediocre.

BitPlayer wrote:

crusader wrote:Wlad's resume still made him the clear #1 HW for multiple years. From 2012 until his last fight, who had a stronger claim to being the man of the division than him? How about during Vitali's 4 years off?

Wlad unarguably established dominance in my view, and should be considered a legitimate lineal champ if that's the achievment those titles are supposed to capture. If they're purely about order, and fighters can only be lineal champions by beating the reigning lineal champ of the division, then Lennox will be the last HW lineal champ in history, unless he comes out of retirement and is beaten.

Surely Tunney would be the last then.

Yup. That's what makes it so pointless. There is almost 5 different wlad fights the case can be made and zero that can't be debated. Archaic in the present sport.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I never watched that.

I wouldn't advise you ever do so. Wlad initiates 300+ holds.

Oh god, I'll never watch any of them. Fury was the first one since haye just in case size and balls was enough to expose the fraud again. It was, I'll never watch another miserable second of wlad in the ring.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

BitPlayer wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Wlad never beat anyone of note.

Who didn't he beat?

He lost to the same level he beat. Average to mediocre.

Is it not possible he got better?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I never watched that.

I wouldn't advise you ever do so. Wlad initiates 300+ holds.

Oh god, I'll never watch any of them. Fury was the first one since haye just in case size and balls was enough to expose the fraud again. It was, I'll never watch another miserable second of wlad in the ring.

To quote Tyson Fury in the Klitschko rematch press conference: "You must be shyt, you lost to a fat gippo!"