BoxRec

Clay vs this version of Mike.....who wins? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agM-VtbzX7o

Clay by blowout, 50/50 lopsided decision or DQ.

How about comparing fully mature 21-year-old versions of both boxers -- since they both lost amateur fights to boxers you never heard of.

21-year-old Cassius Clay takes on 188-pound Light Heavyweight Doug Jones, 21-3-1 ... and wins a close, controversial 10-round decision... Clay almost got decked a couple of times by the little nipper. Fight starts at 5:12 of video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eer1xg88q9g

21-year old Mike Tyson takes on 212-pound Undefeated Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight Champion Michael Spinks, 31-0 ... Tyson Trevor Brerbick and Larry Holmes to set up this Title Unification. Fight starts are 5:56 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T02RhdpGWgw

After Mike Tyson's terrific KO blow crushed him, Spinks quit Boxing for his health ... Cassius Clay barely got Doug Jones's attention with his best shots.

You forgot to mention, young Cassius was roughed up and his bicycle stolen at a young age.

Tyson probably stole a few bikes by that time.

Clay would've boxed his ears off

Hey wait a minute ya can't sneak one past the ol Buzzer..........you're overlooking that very close to that same age....21-22 A young Clay beat Sonny Liston.

Now Sonny probably had a good chance at beating Mike Spinks.

Ya can't just go and leave that out of your report. Otherwise it's missin' a page.

Or is that what happened here? Dog ate your homework maybe?

Really neat to see this early Tyson.

Never seen him throw so many jabs!

I think if he had gone to the body a little more, he'd have won.

For me, Tyson DID win this contest... He landed the sharper punches, was busier, and carried the fight... He certainly expected to get the decision.

Maybe sticking his tongue out at Tillman cost him the fight... The referee called him on it.... Can't put too much stock in amateur judges.

BoxBuzz wrote:Hey wait a minute ya can't sneak one past the ol Buzzer..........you're overlooking that very close to that same age....21-22 A young Clay beat Sonny Liston.

Now Sonny probably had a good chance at beating Mike Spinks.

Ya can't just go and leave that out of your report. Otherwise it's missin' a page.

Or is that what happened here? Dog ate your homework maybe?

The dog ate your brain... Did Ali run over Liston the way Tyson ran over Spinks??? ... Liston-Clay was even after 6 rounds...even though Liston had a torn left biceps and had to retire after 6 rounds... That means Liston was winning after 5 rounds, because he was getting hammered in the 6th with his left arm gone... In the rematch, Ali should have been DQ'd for refusing the referee's DIRECT ORDER to go to a neutral corner for the ENTIRE COUNT!!! ... And also, the count should have been suspended...such as happened in the Dempsey-Tunney "Long Count" fight where Dempsey took over 4 seconds to go to a neutral corner.. Ali never got to that corner.

You know, you sound like someone who doesn't know how to appreciate the more subtle side of this sport.

Now I like your opinion a lot. I just wouldn't want it for myself.

A KO is nice way to end a fight. But if that's all you need, might as well give both guys a bat. Which would favor that Ruth fella.

Subtleties of the sport are my specialty BuzzBox... but they're useless here... When you show a proclivity for getting your thoughts around the obvious - I'll delve into the subtle. If I say Ali ignored the referee's orders to go to a neutral corner -- and therefore the count should have been suspended and perhaps Ali disqualified for flagrantly violating the rules -- and Liston should NOT have been stripped of his boxing license because HE didn't violate any rules -- and in fact rose to his feet without ever getting a count from the referee and resumed the boxing match with Ali... You see, this is all lost in the ether... A relatively easy sequence of events for anyone to follow, but logic doesn't play in the Boxing world.

Clay wins. Clay always proved to have a chin and able to get by similar ferocious punchers and the only time he was stopped was when he was already done.

amazing how much muscle mike must
have gained within the two years after
this fight. if you had seen him like this,
no one would have bet he'd be the beast
at heavies very soon. took a great like
damato to see that i guess.

Kalan wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Hey wait a minute ya can't sneak one past the ol Buzzer..........you're overlooking that very close to that same age....21-22 A young Clay beat Sonny Liston.

Now Sonny probably had a good chance at beating Mike Spinks.

Ya can't just go and leave that out of your report. Otherwise it's missin' a page.

Or is that what happened here? Dog ate your homework maybe?

Did Ali run over Liston the way Tyson ran over Spinks??? ... Liston-Clay was even after 6 rounds...even though Liston had a torn left biceps and had to retire after 6 rounds... .

This direct in context, and untwisted quote speaks volumes about who you are in terms of boxing editorialized opinion. And why you can not be trusted to give a serious balanced analysis of this sport. This despite your obvious intelligence. An intelligence you use almost exclusively to promote your various unique biases.

Let me answer this question.

Q: Did Ali run over Liston the way Tyson ran over Spinks?

A: Of course not precisely but not all that differently. Spinks was beaten before he got in the ring....he was tight, nervous, and possibly a bit fearful. He just allowed himself to be mowed down. Something was going on that affected his typical approach to a fight. In the Ali Liston (II) encounter it was eerily similar. Did you really even ask that question? Seems on the goofy side...unless you are rather blindly bias. Ooops...never mind.

Also....and equally important. YOU are perhaps the only contributor here that would comment thusly: " Liston-Clay was even after 6 rounds...even though Liston had a torn left biceps and had to retire after 6 rounds"

Once again your words in context...untwisted.......and not exactly false. HOWEVER.....let's be fair, and observant of the facts. Liston's torn left bicep(s) is a natural consequence of getting into the ring with a challenger. Something that has happened more than once, when a gifted dexterous boxer gets into the ring with a more robotic and more powerful puncher. The more powerful boxer's style can be used against them....and they can injure themselves......e.g. Ali/Liston.....Byrd/Vitali. Don't say it aint so Mr Trainer.

ALSO.....even if you were to want to deny the truth of that FACT for some reason....I have another observation to share. YOU are one of the few contributors that would comment about how the fight was even after 6 rounds , "even though Liston had torn" (natural consequence of boxing) "left biceps". You made this comment without informing the young and inexperienced and easily influenced reader, that a very unnatural occurrence took place during that fight. One that is not a natural consequence of boxing, and was highly favorable to Liston. If you don't know what that was, I invite you to view the film. You'll be amazed at what you see. (And what Clay was unable to see) And I'm sure you'll issue a clarification based on your more detailed review.

I always like to end on a positive, so to your credit, you have watched the film of the second fight, and know full well that the "invisible punch" was a stunner, and Liston's response to that was likely genuine.

But when your favorite fighters are involved, you simply can not be trusted to give a fair analysis. And that's a fact Jack.

Case closed.

Next.......

Let's hurry the next case up, I got a golf game this afternoon.

BuzzBox you're full of it again... Liston is NOT a favorite of mine and I don't consider him a particularly great fighter... So that is another piece of BS you pulled out of your ass.. I was a big fan of Clay.. I was I of the few who picked Clay to beat Liston... I thought he was younger, faster, taller, undefeated, took a great shot. Liston was so inactive in the pervious 3 years I felt very strongly that Clay was going to wear him down and beat him in the late rounds.

The injury to Liston had nothing to do with anything Clay did... Liston saw LESS than 3 rounds of action in the previous 3 years.. That's less than 1 round a year. That's not enough action or rounds for an aging warrior to stay sharp and keep his body sharp... Liston seemed badly over-trained and his left biceps unraveled as a result.. It was nothing Clay did -- anymore than a sprained ankle or injured knee to the star of one team is planned by the other team. The other team is fortunate and are going to try to take advantage of their good fortune. That's it.

Liston got screwed royally in Ali-Liston 2 and that's it.. Did Ali score a legitimate knockdown??? Yes he did.. But he should have been DQ'd for refusing a referee's order to go to a neutral corner for the entire count.. Was Liston capable of getting up and continuing the fight??? Yes he was.. He DID continue the fight and had Ali missing his follow up punches.. Liston slipped and dodged them, showing his reflexes were intact.

As far as Clay claiming his eyes were burning in the 1st fight.. That's all anybody ever hears about.. It didn't cause a lot of issues because Clay won. I'm more concerned about people who get the short end of the stick -- as Sonny Liston did when his license to box was revoked by every state in the union for 3 years until Nevada reinstated him.. Did Liston violate a single rule or statute??? NO.. The Boxing Commission concluded erroneously that he faked a knockdown and they tried to end his career.. That way they didn't have to face the issue about the count not being suspended and Ali refusing to go to a neutral corner.. They dumped the whole debacle on Liston.

.

Clay woops Tyson

All this bullshit. 99.5 percent of the boxing writers picked Liston. You need to learn to connect the dots. I don't know how stupid you Ali bots are so stupid od boxing history. Did you think carbo /Palermo were not going to collect on their 11year investment ? The press made Liston an unpopular champion. When he was taken control of by carbo Palermo , they were boxing. By 1964 they were in jail , and on their way to jail. FBI wiretap between Sam giaincana and Bernie Glickman Liston willdo any thing we want. The fact he told fornada cox before the fight he was going to tank. In Cleveland heavy money dropped on clay right before the fight. Glickman tells his son , don't bet on Liston. Really , do your homework. The mob makes money , period. They made a fortune on this fight. I don't care what the hell you think. It's total bullshit. The fight was fixed for one reason. MONEY. That's what the mob does. Ash Resnick are you fuckin kidding me.

Sonnylistonmichael wrote:All this bullshit. 99.5 percent of the boxing writers picked Liston. You need to learn to connect the dots. I don't know how stupid you Ali bots are so stupid od boxing history. Did you think carbo /Palermo were not going to collect on their 11year investment ? The press made Liston an unpopular champion. When he was taken control of by carbo Palermo , they were boxing. By 1964 they were in jail , and on their way to jail. FBI wiretap between Sam giaincana and Bernie Glickman Liston willdo any thing we want. The fact he told fornada cox before the fight he was going to tank. In Cleveland heavy money dropped on clay right before the fight. Glickman tells his son , don't bet on Liston. Really , do your homework. The mob makes money , period. They made a fortune on this fight. I don't care what the hell you think. It's total bullshit. The fight was fixed for one reason. MONEY. That's what the mob does. Ash Resnick are you fuckin kidding me.

Wow can you imagine the tension that must have been mounting when someone from Listons corner accidentally spilled the liniment?

I love a good comedian. Thanks for taking time between shows to drop by and give us a free sample.

Where will you be performing?

I'm looking forward to your second contribution to our forum.


By the way my sarcasm is just my way of saying I respectfully disagree......Sonny

Right BuzzBox.... The first Liston-Clay fight wasn't fixed because Liston landed a couple hard shots on Clay just not on the button... You never know when a shot is going to connect perfectly... maybe in the 1st round... maybe in the 12th round... maybe you won't score a KO...but it doesn't matter if you get the decision... You just throw the punches as quickly, accurately, and with as much leverage and timing as you can muster...

If Liston intended to throw the 1st Clay fight he would have quit when he was cut -- like Rahman vs Toney... Campbell vs Bradley... Alexander vs Bradley or Collazo vs Thurman when they had manageable cuts but claimed they couldn't see -- and they could see perfectly well with those tiny cuts ... they just didn't want to fight. Liston fought with the cut and 7 different doctors verified that Liston had a badly torn left biceps injury. The commission kept bringing in different doctors to examine Liston's arm in hopes of finding one specialist who would claim Liston was faking. Finally they were convinced.

If Liston intended to throw the 2nd Ali fight he never would have gotten to his feet and resumed the fight with Ali... How do you fake a KO when you get to your feet before the referee even begins counting---and duck and slip every follow up punch your opponent throws???

Howard Cossell and Mike Tyson together on the same broadcast.
Who would have thunk ?
(because I thought Cossell gave up annoucing boxing in November 1982).

He still did amateur fights for a few years after Holmes-Cobb.

Four guys I never liked: Howard Cosell... Richard Nixon... Spiro Agnew... and Rush Limbaugh... the 4 most pretentious A-holes ever born until Donald Trump came along... At least Cosell had a sense of humor, although he wasn't as funny as he thought he was.

Kalan wrote:Four guys I never liked: Howard Cosell... Richard Nixon... Spiro Agnew... and Rush Limbaugh... the 4 most pretentious A-holes ever born until Donald Trump came along... At least Cosell had a sense of humor, although he wasn't as funny as he thought he was.

We agree on something! What now? Will I find my dog lying down with his new cat-wife when I get home?

Kalan wrote:Four guys I never liked: Howard Cosell... Richard Nixon... Spiro Agnew... and Rush Limbaugh... the 4 most pretentious A-holes ever born until Donald Trump came along... At least Cosell had a sense of humor, although he wasn't as funny as he thought he was.

Bring back the Bull Moose party. Teddy, a man for the ages.