BoxRec

Does anyone remember or know anything about the mysterious brown paper bag that Archie Moore always had in his corner that supposedly contained some secret potion or powerful charm or some other such thing that (supposedly) gave him unusual powers?

Brown paper bag? That was his opponents lunch.

Charley Burley was brown bagging it... During lunch at his factory job in San Diego, CA Charley received a phone call... "Do you want to fight Archie Moore in the main event at Legion Stadium in Hollywood tonight???" ... Burley asked "How much?" ... "6 hundred" ... "I'll be there."

Burley's boss wouldn't let him off work. He had to finish his shift... He didn't own a car, but a co-worker drove him home to get his gear and to the bus station... Burley arrived at Legion Stadium 25 minutes before the main event and without a second... After he wrapped his hands another boxer tied his laces... He put a water bottle in his corner but it disappeared after the 2nd round.. Burley won every round, floored Moore 4 times, and gave him a boxing lesson.. It was Moore's 9th loss in 74 fights. Moore had 6 pounds on Burley who had a tough fight 2 weeks earlier.

Moore went to Burley's dressing room and asked "What the Hell were you doing to me, I couldn't even tie you up." .... Burley chuckled and said "Because I never let you get under a punch kid" Moore was older, but Burley called him kid... "I'd rather miss a punch short than let somebody duck a shot and grab hold of me. You have to throw a little sharper kid, but keep going. You're going to be a good fighter."

Kalan wrote:Charley Burley was brown bagging it... During lunch at his factory job in San Diego, CA Charley received a phone call... "Do you want to fight Archie Moore in the main event at Legion Stadium in Hollywood tonight???" ... Burley asked "How much?" ... "6 hundred" ... "I'll be there."

Burley's boss wouldn't let him off work. He had to finish his shift... He didn't own a car, but a co-worker drove him home to get his gear and to the bus station... Burley arrived at Legion Stadium 25 minutes before the main event and without a second... After he wrapped his hands another boxer tied his laces... He put a water bottle in his corner but it disappeared after the 2nd round.. Burley won every round, floored Moore 4 times, and gave him a boxing lesson.. It was Moore's 9th loss in 74 fights. Moore had 6 pounds on Burley who had a tough fight 2 weeks earlier.

Moore went to Burley's dressing room and asked "What the Hell were you doing to me, I couldn't even tie you up." .... Burley chuckled and said "Because I never let you get under a punch kid" Moore was older, but Burley called him kid... "I'd rather miss a punch short than let somebody duck a shot and grab hold of me. You have to throw a little sharper kid, but keep going. You're going to be a good fighter."

More fan fiction?

Probably it had in it a bottle of a secret magic elixer that a dying elderly Aborgine medacine man had given him when he was out running in a desert in Australia years earlier.

Kalan wrote:Charley Burley was brown bagging it... During lunch at his factory job in San Diego, CA Charley received a phone call... "Do you want to fight Archie Moore in the main event at Legion Stadium in Hollywood tonight???" ... Burley asked "How much?" ... "6 hundred" ... "I'll be there."

Burley's boss wouldn't let him off work. He had to finish his shift... He didn't own a car, but a co-worker drove him home to get his gear and to the bus station... Burley arrived at Legion Stadium 25 minutes before the main event and without a second... After he wrapped his hands another boxer tied his laces... He put a water bottle in his corner but it disappeared after the 2nd round.. Burley won every round, floored Moore 4 times, and gave him a boxing lesson.. It was Moore's 9th loss in 74 fights. Moore had 6 pounds on Burley who had a tough fight 2 weeks earlier.

Moore went to Burley's dressing room and asked "What the Hell were you doing to me, I couldn't even tie you up." .... Burley chuckled and said "Because I never let you get under a punch kid" Moore was older, but Burley called him kid... "I'd rather miss a punch short than let somebody duck a shot and grab hold of me. You have to throw a little sharper kid, but keep going. You're going to be a good fighter."

Great story!

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Kalan wrote:Charley Burley was brown bagging it... During lunch at his factory job in San Diego, CA Charley received a phone call... "Do you want to fight Archie Moore in the main event at Legion Stadium in Hollywood tonight???" ... Burley asked "How much?" ... "6 hundred" ... "I'll be there."

Burley's boss wouldn't let him off work. He had to finish his shift... He didn't own a car, but a co-worker drove him home to get his gear and to the bus station... Burley arrived at Legion Stadium 25 minutes before the main event and without a second... After he wrapped his hands another boxer tied his laces... He put a water bottle in his corner but it disappeared after the 2nd round.. Burley won every round, floored Moore 4 times, and gave him a boxing lesson.. It was Moore's 9th loss in 74 fights. Moore had 6 pounds on Burley who had a tough fight 2 weeks earlier.

Moore went to Burley's dressing room and asked "What the Hell were you doing to me, I couldn't even tie you up." .... Burley chuckled and said "Because I never let you get under a punch kid" Moore was older, but Burley called him kid... "I'd rather miss a punch short than let somebody duck a shot and grab hold of me. You have to throw a little sharper kid, but keep going. You're going to be a good fighter."

More fan fiction?

Any Boxing old timer who knew Burley or Moore very well will confirm that Burley-Moore Fight story 100%.. Larry Holmes is an old buddy of Archie's, so he probably heard that story more than once -- although from Moore's perspective, which was a little different.. Moore always said Burley was the best boxer he ever faced in his life.. I'll disagree with Archie on that and say Ezzard Charles is the best he ever faced.. Moore was unlucky enough to face a peak Charles 3 X and lost all 3 fights. Burley lost to Charles twice in the space of a month and fought Holman Williams in between... They didn't screw around in those days, they fought. Charles was a lot bigger than Burley. I guess that may have impressed Moore. How a dude Burley's size could fight Light Heavyweights.

the Bivins/Burley/Charles/Moore encounters are an interesting study.

All truly first class fighters of that or any era.

Though some would say none of them could lay a glove on Kovalev.



Now....I'm not sure anyone could say that with a straight face.........but it's good comedy club material.

what was in the bag had absolutely nothing to do with wilt chamberlain

aliboy123 wrote:what was in the bag had absolutely nothing to do with wilt chamberlain

and how can you be so sure ?

You're your own comedy club BuzzBox. You love to amuse yourself with your own material. I'm not amused. Your stuff is sad.

I'm positive Kovalev and Ward would have been competitive with Burley, Bivins, Charles, and Moore -- especially considering how many times all those guys got their butts kicked.. Some of the punches that found Charles, Moore, Bivins, and Burley wouldn't hit Ward or Kovalev.. After all, Ward and Kovalev fought 61 fights with ZERO being the number of fights they lost... Your 4 characters suffered 85 losses...that's a lot. Some of their losses were to people you never heard of and people who weren't terribly skilled.

For instance -- Archie Moore was knocked out by a green rook named Leonard Marrow, 11-2-1, at a time when Archie had over 100 fights ... Jimmy Bivins had 85 fights and was 29 when he was beaten by the still green Marrow, who was then 17-3-2 ... So lets talk about Charley Burley who gave Archie Moore a damned good beating after getting the fight on 8 hours notice in the middle of his day job. Bert Lytell beat Burley when Burley was 29.. Was Lytell real good?? His record was 39-11-4 at the time and part of their fight is available on Youtube.. Neither looked like they could hold a candle to Kovalev or Ward or looked like they would be successful fighting them ... So that brings us to Ezzard Charles who was by far the best of those 4 fighters.. Charles lost back to back fights to Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall when he had 33 and 34 fights... At that time they had 12 losses between them and 30 something wins each... But Ezzard Charles' record against the other 3 fighters was 9-1 - losing only to Bivins. Charles beat Bivins 4 times, beat Moore 3 times, and beat Burley twice...

Charles had 25 losses, but the majority of those were due to suffering the early effects of ALS, a creeping nerve disease that eventually killed him.

Posted on another site (from Archie Moore's autobiography):


'I had another fight I am ashamed of and that was against Len Morrow, the second time I fought him. In our first fight, I landed a low punch and extended both arms in apology. While I was wide open he threw a sneak right hand shot that hit me square in the kisser. A year later I fought him in Toledo and punched him into the hospital. In the seventh round I knew I had him and I could put him away at any time. But I was mean and angry at him, so I waited until the tenth. But I was a little too mean. He got concussion and nearly died. He has never been any good in the ring since then. I'm sorry for that.'

Everyone has an excuse... Morrow had all of 11 wins, 2 losses, and a draw when the massive underdog took on 31-year-old peak career Archie Moore, 92-14-7.

San Francisco Chronicle -- "Morrow landed a left-right that dropped Moore for a six count. After Moore got up a little shaky, he pulled back into a long left hook, which floored him for a nine count. Moore got up wobbly, but pushed Morrow back with a flurry to the body. As he plunged forward though, Morrow tagged him with a straight right that stretched him for the full count."

Imagine if that happened to Golovkin.. Joshua.. Ortiz.. Ward.. Kovalev.. Crawford.. Fury.. Thurman etc.. They'd be a laughing stock for years. The thing is a fighter can't afford to lose badly today where it wasn't that big a deal back in the day. And it really shouldn't be---because when a fist hits a chin it doesn't ask how much experience you have -- or how experienced the man throwing it is.

It's not as if Morrow had no ability. A few fights later, but still green, he beat Jimmy Bivins.

Kolon, you really get to the bottom of things don't you. ...NOT.

There's another factor that you slept through when considering your words....and that's the activity level of those guys. Sometimes those guys were fighting every month for a year. No chance to take a look at the competition, and train accordingly. These days some of these guys take one a year or maybe 3 tops. And during that time they are cherry picking, and viewing every move their future opponent ever made in the ring.

Now take two Tylenol, and stop being a headache.

Kalan wrote:Everyone has an excuse... Morrow had all of 11 wins, 2 losses, and a draw when the massive underdog took on 31-year-old peak career Archie Moore, 92-14-7.

San Francisco Chronicle -- "Morrow landed a left-right that dropped Moore for a six count. After Moore got up a little shaky, he pulled back into a long left hook, which floored him for a nine count. Moore got up wobbly, but pushed Morrow back with a flurry to the body. As he plunged forward though, Morrow tagged him with a straight right that stretched him for the full count."

Imagine if that happened to Golovkin.. Joshua.. Ortiz.. Ward.. Kovalev.. Crawford.. Fury.. Thurman etc.. They'd be a laughing stock for years. The thing is a fighter can't afford to lose badly today where it wasn't that big a deal back in the day. And it really shouldn't be---because when a fist hits a chin it doesn't ask how much experience you have -- or how experienced the man throwing it is.

I don't see that as an excuse.....it's an explanation....one that pans out when taken in context with the follow up fight.

BuzzBox your goofy comments are getting more strained and thoughtless as you go... Moore was supposed to destroy the badly overmatched Morrow.. He got knocked stiff by a massive underdog.., It wasn't the only time Moore was beaten by a green swinger.. A guy 2-2 beat him in his 18th fight

You have to realize that Moore wasn't fighting undefeated killers when he fought so often... He was fighting guys he was supposed to polish off in a couple of rounds and he was padding up his record like crazy... He fought a guy making his pro debut when he had about 90 fights... He fought a number of guys making their pro debut when he was very experienced. He also fought some tough fighters on occasion, but Moore lost a substantial number of those fights.

I not criticizing Moore so much... I think it's remarkable that a few fighters like Moore stayed as busy as they did---but they suffered many losses, and many times to underdogs.. Moore is ranked the 2nd greatest fighter in Boxing History by this website right behind undefeated Floyd Mayweather.. I do find that interesting since Ezzard Charles beat Moore 3 times in 3 fights, including knocking him out. Now, unlike Robinson, Moore fought some good boxers from time to time. He was 0-5 against Burley, Charles, and Patterson... He didn't generally manage to beat good boxers but he beat Harold Johnson 4 out of 5... However, if any of the top boxers today lose a fight the critics will jump down their throat with both feet.

Other "ALL-TIME" rankings I find interesting... Patterson is ranked 9th best Heavyweight. Sonny liston---who Patterson ducked for years---is ranked 18th

Frazier is ranked 11th best Heavyweight... George Foreman, who crushed Frazier like a roach is ranked 19th

Antonio Tarver is ranked 14th best Heavyweight in the History of Boxing---well ahead of George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Jack Dempsey, and Jim Jeffries -- that's fun stuff -- especially since Jim Jeffries is ranked 139th, well behind Kid Riviera and Tuffy Griffith... I'm not sure how that's supposed to work, since Jeffries beat Jim Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, Bob Armstrong, Peter Jackson, Tom Sharkey, and Hank Griffin ... and fought during a period of 20 and 25-round fights.

Kalan wrote:BuzzBox your goofy comments are getting more strained and thoughtless as you go... Moore was supposed to destroy the badly overmatched Morrow.. He got knocked stiff by a massive underdog.., It wasn't the only time Moore was beaten by a green swinger.. A guy 2-2 beat him in his 18th fight

You have to realize that Moore wasn't fighting undefeated killers when he fought so often... He was fighting guys he was supposed to polish off in a couple of rounds and he was padding up his record like crazy... He fought a guy making his pro debut when he had about 90 fights... He fought a number of guys making their pro debut when he was very experienced. He also fought some tough fighters on occasion, but Moore lost a substantial number of those fights.

I not criticizing Moore so much... I think it's remarkable that a few fighters like Moore stayed as busy as they did---but they suffered many losses, and many times to underdogs.. Moore is ranked the 2nd greatest fighter in Boxing History by this website right behind undefeated Floyd Mayweather.. I do find that interesting since Ezzard Charles beat Moore 3 times in 3 fights, including knocking him out. Now, unlike Robinson, Moore fought some good boxers from time to time. He was 0-5 against Burley, Charles, and Patterson... He didn't generally manage to beat good boxers but he beat Harold Johnson 4 out of 5... However, if any of the top boxers today lose a fight the critics will jump down their throat with both feet.

Other "ALL-TIME" rankings I find interesting... Patterson is ranked 9th best Heavyweight. Sonny liston---who Patterson ducked for years---is ranked 18th

Frazier is ranked 11th best Heavyweight... George Foreman, who crushed Frazier like a roach is ranked 19th

Antonio Tarver is ranked 14th best Heavyweight in the History of Boxing---well ahead of George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Jack Dempsey, and Jim Jeffries -- that's fun stuff -- especially since Jim Jeffries is ranked 139th, well behind Kid Riviera and Tuffy Griffith... I'm not sure how that's supposed to work, since Jeffries beat Jim Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, Bob Armstrong, Peter Jackson, Tom Sharkey, and Hank Griffin ... and fought during a period of 20 and 25-round fights.

Which article about the "All-Time" ranking did you get it from and whoever rank Floyd Patterson over Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier over George Foreman, Tarver over Foreman, Liston, Jack Dempsey and Jim Jeffries and Kid Rivera and Tuffy Griffith over Jim Jeffries is a moron and probably knows nothing about the accomplishment about the heavyweight legends below other heavyweights who didn't accomplish enough and not winning the heavyweight title. Whoever wrote the all-time ranking, I find it not interesting, but the ranking is B.S.

All you have to do is stay on this website... Go to HOME page... Click on ratings, world, heavyweights, southpaw and orthodox, and ALL... You get the All Time Heavyweight rankings

kalan....boxbuzz could wake up in the morning and off the top of could talk about any phase of boxing than you could after spending three weeks of research.

You're so stupid you stink... He doesn't know 1% of what I know about the sport... He even admits he's slow on the uptake so I take pity on him.

Kalan wrote:BuzzBox your goofy comments are getting more strained and thoughtless as you go... Moore was supposed to destroy the badly overmatched Morrow.. He got knocked stiff by a massive underdog.., It wasn't the only time Moore was beaten by a green swinger.. A guy 2-2 beat him in his 18th fight

You have to realize that Moore wasn't fighting undefeated killers when he fought so often... He was fighting guys he was supposed to polish off in a couple of rounds and he was padding up his record like crazy... He fought a guy making his pro debut when he had about 90 fights... He fought a number of guys making their pro debut when he was very experienced. He also fought some tough fighters on occasion, but Moore lost a substantial number of those fights.

I not criticizing Moore so much... I think it's remarkable that a few fighters like Moore stayed as busy as they did---but they suffered many losses, and many times to underdogs.. Moore is ranked the 2nd greatest fighter in Boxing History by this website right behind undefeated Floyd Mayweather.. I do find that interesting since Ezzard Charles beat Moore 3 times in 3 fights, including knocking him out. Now, unlike Robinson, Moore fought some good boxers from time to time. He was 0-5 against Burley, Charles, and Patterson... He didn't generally manage to beat good boxers but he beat Harold Johnson 4 out of 5... However, if any of the top boxers today lose a fight the critics will jump down their throat with both feet.

Other "ALL-TIME" rankings I find interesting... Patterson is ranked 9th best Heavyweight. Sonny liston---who Patterson ducked for years---is ranked 18th

Frazier is ranked 11th best Heavyweight... George Foreman, who crushed Frazier like a roach is ranked 19th

Antonio Tarver is ranked 14th best Heavyweight in the History of Boxing---well ahead of George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Jack Dempsey, and Jim Jeffries -- that's fun stuff -- especially since Jim Jeffries is ranked 139th, well behind Kid Riviera and Tuffy Griffith... I'm not sure how that's supposed to work, since Jeffries beat Jim Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, Bob Armstrong, Peter Jackson, Tom Sharkey, and Hank Griffin ... and fought during a period of 20 and 25-round fights.

Kalan, the rating system here is meant to be understood correctly before you assess it. You need to do some homework. It's not subjective, it's purely mathematical. So once you understand that the numbers need to be taken in a certain context, then it gets easier to digest. Your not meant to think of it as rankings, but as general ratings. And it has a logarithmic equation that sorts out it's own oddities. BUT....you need to read about how that works, and it's inherent bias, before you can take away any meaning from the order.

it's some work, but it can be done. They have tweeked around with it a few times for fun, and it comes out just as odd each time.

Mostly giving fighters like YOU PREFER much preference. the computer just does not know how to deal with the "undefeated record". And usually sorts those on top.....sort of how you look at things. At one time the Valeros, Marcianos and Calzaghe's ruled the ratings. Maybe they still do, I haven't checked lately. But it's sort of interesting when you get the rationale for the formula and then attempt to justify it with logic. Much like you, It has has moments when it makes sense.

Kalan wrote:You're so stupid you stink... He doesn't know 1% of what I know about the sport... He even admits he's slow on the uptake so I take pity on him.

Stop with the personal insults Kalan,

And.....FYI

Otis Redding had a great hit with Mr Pitiful.

And you are correct, I'm still searching for that 1% that you know about the sport, though I don't know precisely what that is to this point, I feel certain I will capture it as you continue to pontificate, and/or pugilitate....which ever comes first.

buzz......was he saying I am so stupid i stink? me!!!!! oh dear. i guess he doesn't know, or wasn't around when i was just jaclem..and added 2 to my name and then 3 because my boxrec comments and replies were filling up my email addresses were getting so filled up i had to change my user names. that would explain his not knowing my history on this forum. (a proustian kind of sentence, but i've been reading him a lot these days. maybe kalan is influenced by gertrude stein)

i haven't sent you a pm for a while. i'll try to get back in touch before too long.

jaclem3 wrote:buzz......was he saying I am so stupid i stink? me!!!!! oh dear. i guess he doesn't know, or wasn't around when i was just jaclem..and added 2 to my name and then 3 because my boxrec comments and replies were filling up my email addresses were getting so filled up i had to change my user names. that would explain his not knowing my history on this forum. (a proustian kind of sentence, but i've been reading him a lot these days. maybe kalan is influenced by gertrude stein)

i haven't sent you a pm for a while. i'll try to get back in touch before too long.

sounds good jaclem.

As far as Kalan goes, he knows some things....probably a lot....but what's interesting is his judgment...it's as eclectic as it gets.

And he's like New England weather....if you don't like what's being served up today, just wait, it'll shift around to your fancy by next week.

He gives a good mix to the opinion pool even all by himself....., he's harmless.