BoxRec

Kalan wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

Kalan wrote:Armstrong outgrew the featherweight division. Let that title go... He was able to move up from lightweight to welter because he faced light hitters... When he faced a real Welterweight in Robinson, he fought the suckiest and most dreary fight any fan ever sat through...

Armstrong was a fair puncher with a strong chin, little boxing skill, and good endurance.. He fought like Joe Frazier, absorbing more punches than the average man could throw -- but if and when he met a real good boxer-puncher he was dead meat. There were 30 fights he didn't win. He did a tremendous amount of pushing, shoving, and butting and he was disqualified twice for fouling -- although he generally had friendly referees.. Pushing with your head shoulders and forearms are fouls and Armstrong did that constantly. He didn't have a jab and couldn't box or counter from range.

Anybody who was a great boxer-puncher would beat Armstrong - and that includes Edwin Valero.. Armstrong had an 83% winning ratio and a 56% KO ratio.. Not bad, but not great.. Valero had a 100% winning ratio and a 100% KO ratio... Watch Valero's fights and Armstrong's fights... Ask yourself who has the better footwork... who landed the cleaner, harder, faster punches... and who did the most butting, pushing, fouling, brawling, and less effective boxing and punching.

Valero shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Armstrong. There's not a single great fighter from Boxing's past, present or future that Valero beats. He's a legend in your mind. In the real world he was a very hittable boxer/puncher with a gawdy record that really never fought nobody. He fought 2 good opponents, and the best fighter he ever beat (Demarco) ain't all that great, and has been beaten handily by lots of fighters. Including suck ass Broner.

You don't deal well with facts... Armstrong lost 21 times... Many of the guys who beat Armstrong were unknown and had numerous defeats on their records to guys who were never heard from before or since... Ray Robinson is the most famous boxer on Armstrong's record and Armstrong lost every round and stunk the joint out with his lack of effort... Beau Jack beat Armstrong by UD in an easy matchup for him... Ruben Shank was comparatively green with only 18 wins, but he beat Armstrong by UD... Joe Conde had 17 previous defeats and was an extremely light hitter, yet he knocked Armstrong down and beat him unanimously... Fritzie Zivic beat Armstrong by UD and several months later knocked him out. Zivic had numerous previous defeats on his record, including losing 12 or 13 at one stretch... Armstrong lost twice by DQ and was a habitual fouler.

All those defeats were a product of Armstrong leading with his head and absorbing numerous punches... He pushed and shoved with his head, shoulders, forearms and gloves for leverage... and just generally walked into punches while being very easy to hit... But lets just sweep all those facts under the rug like they never happened, because we're just here to perpetuate fan exploitation and myths.

BoxBuzz wrote:For context, I stole a contribution from the McCallum Hearns thread to get this conversation started.


Kalan you are soooo good with facts.....

you've been double dealin facts since your arrival...

By my math, That makes you TWICE as good as the rest of us

Here are some facts for you .....Not my words....but interesting.



Henry Armstrong, a 5-foot-5½ buzzsaw, accomplished what no fighter before or since has ever been able to do -- he simultaneously held three world titles. And he managed this unique feat before inflation hit boxing, back when there were only eight weight classes with no junior-this or super-that divisions.
Armstrong had a 151-21-9 record in his 15-year professional career. With his aggressive attitude and incessant windmill style, he was all over opponents, as evidenced by his 101 knockouts and his nickname of Homicide Hank.

Henry Armstrong turned pro after failing to make the 1932 U.S. Olympic team ... and he promptly lost his first two pro fights.
As welterweight champion, Armstrong made his mark by successfully defending his title 19 times in less than two years. But it was his triple crown, accomplished in a 10-month period in the late 1930s, that gained him everlasting fame.

First, he knocked out featherweight champion Petey Sarron in the sixth round on Oct. 29, 1937. He won 14 fights before bypassing the lightweight title and challenging welterweight champion Barney Ross for his crown on May 31, 1938. It was no contest, with Armstrong's rapid-fire attack overwhelming Ross to gain the 15-round decision.

Taking away Lou Ambers' lightweight crown on Aug. 17, 1938 in Madison Square Garden proved more difficult. Ambers had Armstrong spitting blood from a torn bottom lip, and he cut the challenger's eyes as well. Despite almost blacking out in the 15th round, Armstrong won a split decision to make history.

BoxBuzz wrote:Sarron, Ambers, Ross, pretty good I suppose,

But he did lose his first two fights.....

Maybe Sarron, Ambers, and Ross just didn't get the memo about how inept he was?

Tomasino wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Sarron, Ambers, Ross, pretty good I suppose,

But he did lose his first two fights.....

Maybe Sarron, Ambers, and Ross just didn't get the memo about how inept he was?

I had become convinced, by Kalans uncanny logic, that Armstrong never fought anybody good, never mind great. I believe the example that swung it was Henry's loss to Ray Robinson. The first decent puncher he faced.

gilgamesh wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Sarron, Ambers, Ross, pretty good I suppose,

But he did lose his first two fights.....

Maybe Sarron, Ambers, and Ross just didn't get the memo about how inept he was?

I had become convinced, by Kalans uncanny logic, that Armstrong never fought anybody good, never mind great. I believe the example that swung it was Henry's loss to Ray Robinson. The first decent puncher he faced.

Yeah the guy went through 4 weight classes and 150 something fights before facing a decent puncher

BoxBuzz wrote:Back in those days, punchers were very busy building the railroads and automobiles I guess......no time for boxing.

Lucky break for Hank.

Tomasino wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Back in those days, punchers were very busy building the railroads and automobiles I guess......no time for boxing.

Lucky break for Hank.

Isn't basketball where the big punchers go?

Kalan wrote:You should be banned from posting forever... You haven't contributed one decent post yet and are just here to hate.

BoxBuzz wrote:now come on.....when you've got strong opinions you also need thick enough skin to take a few barbs.

Kalan wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:now come on.....when you've got strong opinions you also need thick enough skin to take a few barbs.

Barbs??? ... That A-Hole Tomasino is a flat out hater. You have barbs, although they're none too clever. How about fewer barbs and more thought???

Kalan wrote:I don't give a crap about all the super soft opponents Armstrong beat... There were 30 fights he DIDN’T win... And that's a lot for a guy who fought one of the biggest selection of cherry picks in the History of Boxing... Armstrong lost twice by DQ but Boxing was very corrupt in those days... He should have been DQ'd about 80 times for head-butting, pushing and leveraging with his head, shoulders, forearms, and gloves... He was strictly a brawler.

Like I said before: “Armstrong lost 21 times... Many of the guys who beat Armstrong were unknown and had numerous defeats on their records to guys who were never heard from before or since... Ray Robinson is the most famous boxer on Armstrong's record and Armstrong lost every round and stunk the joint out with his lack of effort... Beau Jack beat Armstrong by UD in an easy matchup for him... Ruben Shank was comparatively green with only 18 wins, but he beat Armstrong by UD... Joe Conde had 17 previous defeats and was an extremely light hitter, yet he knocked Armstrong down and beat him unanimously... Fritzie Zivic beat Armstrong by UD and several months later knocked him out. Zivic had numerous previous defeats on his record, including losing 12 or 13 at one stretch... Armstrong lost twice by DQ and was a habitual fouler.

All those defeats were a product of Armstrong leading with his head and absorbing numerous punches... He pushed and shoved with his head, shoulders, forearms and gloves for leverage... and just generally walked into punches while being very easy to hit... But lets just sweep all those facts under the rug like they never happened, because we're just here to perpetuate fan exploitation and myths.”

Armstrong fought one guy who could punch, Ray Robinson... He was in there to survive and didn't put up a fight... The fight stunk out loud

Tomasino wrote:

Kalan wrote:You should be banned from posting forever... You haven't contributed one decent post yet and are just here to hate.

I don't hate anyone here. I just think you post the biggest load of shite ever. Almost everyone else thinks the same, or haven't you noticed?

Edit: having now read past the first two lines of your post, I'm convinced your suffering massive head trauma and you should put your life in box buzz hands. He's interested in this kind of thing. Every loss you mention in Armstrongs career happened when he was past his best and drinking and smoking like a playboy. Fighters lost in those days, Armstrong was robbed more than once. Nobody else in the world, not even Valeros prison husband thinks he was greater than Barney Ross or Baby Arizmendi never mind Henry Armstrong.

elmersalsa wrote:Kalan, for the record, I would like to see your PERSONAL LIST of the 20 best fighters ever that graced the ring? I am not going to comment about it, but I would like you to give us a detailed information as why you think it's so. Is Edwin Valero in your top 10 p4p all time? I am curious.