BoxRec

Very subjective I know, but I'm interested to see how far have gone beyond their natural abilities.

BitPlayer wrote:Very subjective I know, but I'm interested to see how far have gone beyond their natural abilities.

The great Henry Armstrong is one of them.

Also, I will put the greats like Evander Holyfield, Thomas Hearns and Roberto Duran.

Carl Froch. Thought he was one dimensional and wouldn't achieve even half of what he did in the end.

From a Brit perspective folks like Dennis Andries and Steve Robinson spring to mind.

They both had great qualities such as fitness, hunger and strength...but I don't think either of them were ever viewed as guys who would get close to world title belts or then make some defences either.

Steve and Dennis did however both make big improvements when they got to the top and to a certain extent Steve's record was a bit misleading because he had a day job (right-up to to the Hardy fight if I recall) and fought a fair bit on the road.

Clinton Woods might be another...started late and sometimes looked laboured and pretty easy to hit...but then often landed a bomb that changed the fight his way. Fairly sure Clinton has said in the past that anyhting above Commonwealth/Euro/Brit was a bonus for him.

Always liked Clinton; very game and made the best of what he had and did his learning on the job.

elmersalsa wrote:

BitPlayer wrote:Very subjective I know, but I'm interested to see how far have gone beyond their natural abilities.

The great Henry Armstrong is one of them.

Also, I will put the greats like Evander Holyfield, Thomas Hearns and Roberto Duran.

I can't understand why you class Hearns as an overachiever. He was a top amauter boxer and as a pro had all the tools.... great jab, great right hand, hooks, body shots, movement, hand speed. He had everything.

Iran Barkley is an overachiever. Hearns is not.

I'll say one thing, Judah tops every underachiever list but he's closer to an overachiever.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

BitPlayer wrote:Very subjective I know, but I'm interested to see how far have gone beyond their natural abilities.

The great Henry Armstrong is one of them.

Also, I will put the greats like Evander Holyfield, Thomas Hearns and Roberto Duran.

I can't understand why you class Hearns as an overachiever. He was a top amauter boxer and as a pro had all the tools.... great jab, great right hand, hooks, body shots, movement, hand speed. He had everything.

Iran Barkley is an overachiever. Hearns is not.

The Hitman won titles far from his original weight class. Many boxers can't win more than one title.

iran Barkley wins Thomas Hearns /Iceman 3Times:)

Off the top of my head I cannot think of another Great/Good fighter that's achieved anything like what Pacman did winning a Legit World Title at Flyweight then down the track win World Title's at Welterweight then Jr Middleweight that's something I would have thought to be impossible

The question is who are the biggest overachievers in boxing history. Holyfield, Duran, Hearns, Pacman all had a lot of talent. I don't really think of them as "overachievers".
How about Gene Fullmer? Probably had about talent as a normal guy and still had a great career. Maybe Tommy Burns.
Many over achievers were never great fighters but good/very good fighters who had average talent.

Ambling Alp II wrote:The question is who are the biggest overachievers in boxing history. Holyfield, Duran, Hearns, Pacman all had a lot of talent. I don't really think of them as "overachievers".
How about Gene Fullmer? Probably had about talent as a normal guy and still had a great career. Maybe Tommy Burns.
Many over achievers were never great fighters but good/very good fighters who had average talent.

Fullmer and Burns are great picks... Carmen Basilio is another who had weak athletic assets... Manny Pacquiao is definitely an overachiever... Corrie Sanders, for the lack of effort he put into Boxing did well.. Leon Spinks.. Michael Bentt.. Jimmy Braddock.. Rocky Maricano.. Rocky Graziano.. Jake LaMotta.. Oscar De La Hoya.. Robert Guerrero.. Ricky Hatton.. Nino Benvenuti.. Vic Darchinyan.. Wladimir Klitschko was a natural athlete, but no instincts for Boxing.. Sergio Martinez for his late start in Boxing did well.. Joey Maxim, for his lack of power, speed, and athleticism.. Denny Moyer for the same reasons.. Barney Ross for his lack of punching power.. Gene Tunney had a slew of physical problems: fallen arches on both feet, frequently broken hands that plaqued him ... and a left arm that went lame for about a year from a strange disease. He all but kissed his Boxing career goodbye when a new fangled electrical treatment rehabbed his arm..

Freddie Flintoff comes to mind.

Victor Galindez never looked like much to me but he did manage to win a title and to hold on to it for years, beating some pretty good fighters along the way.

Primo Carnera... He lacked Boxing fundamentals, defense, and speed, but won 3 World Heavyweight Championship Fights. He beat Tommy Loughran and Jack Sharkey.

Rocky Marciano.

BoneCrusher Smith

Winky Wright

Jimmy Wilde

I am pretty sure I will get seriously jumped for this; likely to be accused of twisted logic, but for what it is worth here I go . . .

Biggest overachiever: Muhammad Ali

To evaluate ‘over-achievement’ one has to compare available skills against level of success; normally when answering this question we compare fighters with ‘poor skills’ measured against ‘better than average success,’ but with Ali, one can make a comparison of (some) great skills against even greater success.

Granted, Ali had three extraordinary skills at his disposal: great lateral movement, (maybe the best of any heavyweight) lighting fast hands, and a (very) solid chin. But only the ‘solid chin’ was with him at the end; his lateral movement was almost gone by his ‘second career’ (post ’71 fights), and by then his lighting fast hands were only average as well.

Added to this he also suffered from some serious limitations, having virtually no inside game, no big punch, and a three year forced lay-off when he would likely have been at his best . . . Yet his career result is one of the best the game has ever witnessed.

I believe if you measure his extraordinary skills (no doubt they were there) against his even ‘more extraordinary’ achievements, Ali was an overachiever, and because he accomplished so much, ‘the biggest overachiever.’

I don't think Ali overachieved... He lost 5 times... The only reason he's a 3 X Heavyweight Champion is because he lost to tyro Leon Spinks and got an immediate rematch... Had he fought Larry Holmes at that point that wouldn't have happened -- but he pretended Holmes didn't exist... I don't think losing to huge underdogs like Norton and Spinks is overachieving. There is nothing Ali did that other Heavyweight Champions didn't accomplish.

At that rate you could call Anthony Joshua an overachiever. He won a Heavyweight Championship when he had 15 pro fights... AJ won an Olympic Gold Medal when he had 42 amateur fights.. And he's knocked out all of his 17 professional opponents in fairly easy fashion.. Many picked Dillian Whyte to beat AJ.. He's never hit the canvas the way Ali did versus Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper ... and he's achieved better all infighting, body punching, and defensive skills early in his career that Ali never achieved.

I know one thing, Kalan. You surely love that Anthony Joshua guy.

Ambling Alp II wrote:The question is who are the biggest overachievers in boxing history. Holyfield, Duran, Hearns, Pacman all had a lot of talent. I don't really think of them as "overachievers".
How about Gene Fullmer? Probably had about talent as a normal guy and still had a great career. Maybe Tommy Burns.
Many over achievers were never great fighters but good/very good fighters who had average talent.

Tommy Burns an overachiever your kidding he would never have won the Heavyweight only for the Colour rule that barred Negro's from fighting for it he was the one of the LUCKIEST men to ever claim that crown and how isn't Pacman an over achiever his 1st fight in 1995 he was going on 17 years old and his weight was 106 pound's by the time he was 21 years old he was still only fighting at 113 pound's...........some one winning a Flyweight World Title and winning another as high as Jr Middleweight is one of the most amazing achievements in Sport history let alone Boxing..................... Pacman was stopped by another Phillipino in Rustico Torrecampo in 1995 who was 11-4-5 at the time he went on to win only 3 of his last 8 fight's before retiring he wasn't even good enough to win the National Title what about the Thai that stopped him Medgoen Singsurat he finished with a very good 74-6 [all losse's by Ko] but if you scratch the surface and have a closer look you'll find that its one of the most padded record's in Boxing history Pacman was not a future HOF then and no one in their WILDEST DREAM'S WOULD HAVE THOUGHT HE WOULD HAVE COME AS FAR AS HE DID..............YES HE DID OVERACHIEVE

Obviously, Pacquiao was a better fighter, but Pacquiao had much more natural talent than Burns.
Burns was 5'7 and usually weighed about 175 pounds. He won the heavyweight championship. Think about that for a minute. When he did lose it, he lasted 14 rounds against Jack Johnson.

Braddock....but I wouldn't say the same for Douglas.

elmersalsa wrote:I know one thing, Kalan. You surely love that Anthony Joshua guy.

Anthony Joshua is the IBF Heavyweight champion? - Who pays attention to the IBF? I thought the IBF was gone, convicted of 'illegal possession of New Jersey" - Do they still count? - Is this the same IBF or a different body with the same acronym?

hhaehre wrote:Victor Galindez never looked like much to me but he did manage to win a title and to hold on to it for years, beating some pretty good fighters along the way.

Good call

Ambling Alp II wrote:Obviously, Pacquiao was a better fighter, but Pacquiao had much more natural talent than Burns.
Burns was 5'7 and usually weighed about 175 pounds. He won the heavyweight championship. Think about that for a minute. When he did lose it, he lasted 14 rounds against Jack Johnson.

IIRC that fight was stopped by the police so he could have gone longer.

Saad's whole life was an overachievement. Qawi fits the mold too.