BoxRec

I just can't work it out. He couldn't win, didn't need to sell tickets... Doesn't he like him?

mickey1975 wrote:I just can't work it out. He couldn't win, didn't need to sell tickets... Doesn't he like him?

It was just to make the pay per view, he needed 3 world title fights, Edwards has not fought anyone good enough to prepare himself for a world title, the writing was on the wall when the fight was made.

Probably easy to make for missmatchroom with the backing of MGM ( as in jazza v rigo on the other channel ) .

Why not?

If they didn't take this fight Charlie Edwards could have got found out at a lower level and never got the opportunity to fight for a world title.

He lost, but he got paid and probably learnt a few things.

Horse wrote:Why not?

If they didn't take this fight Charlie Edwards could have got found out at a lower level and never got the opportunity to fight for a world title.

He lost, but he got paid and probably learnt a few things.

He wasn't ready and everybody knew it, Edwards can come again but its still shameful matchmaking from Hearn and he's lucky things didn't turn out worse for young charlie

littlepug wrote:He wasn't ready and everybody knew it, Edwards can come again but its still shameful matchmaking from Hearn and he's lucky things didn't turn out worse for young charlie

It's speculative matchmaking.

Everyone knew that he would probably lose, but if he won then he'd be world champion and if he lost then he'd have gained experience from the fight.

It was a good risk vs reward fight. Edwards lost. So what?

Horse wrote:

littlepug wrote:He wasn't ready and everybody knew it, Edwards can come again but its still shameful matchmaking from Hearn and he's lucky things didn't turn out worse for young charlie

It's speculative matchmaking.

Everyone knew that he would probably lose, but if he won then he'd be world champion and if he lost then he'd have gained experience from the fight.

It was a good risk vs reward fight. Edwards lost. So what?

I don't think a lad health and wellbeing should be gambled with, it was a silly move from Hearn, fair enough if it was a soft touch but it wasn't and everybody knew it

littlepug wrote:I don't think a lad health and wellbeing should be gambled with, it was a silly move from Hearn, fair enough if it was a soft touch but it wasn't and everybody knew it

Every fight is a gamble. Sometimes you have to take these opportunities when you get them.

How many other fights would Edwards have to take to make the same money he got for this one fight?

Plenty of fighters take worse beatings at domestic level.

His team more than believed they was going to get the win last night.

You can't just blame Eddie, his team has a say in whether he took the fight or not.

I don't see the problem with Charlie Edwards up taking the fight. These days, we're used to top fighters avoiding each other, now we're moaning that the game a fight too early.

If anything, we should be criticising his opponent. What sort of world title defence is against an 8-0 novice?

I think Eddie did Al Haymon a favour and will call in on that favour in due course. Haymon has too many fighters and struggles to get them all fights, especially a flyweight like Casimero. Haymon asked Eddie if he had any flyweights and Eddie helped him out.

The betting market had Casimero as 8/11 an implied probability of 58%. It wasn't a forlorn hope on paper.

The Law wrote:I think Eddie did Al Haymon a favour and will call in on that favour in due course. Haymon has too many fighters and struggles to get them all fights, especially a flyweight like Casimero. Haymon asked Eddie if he had any flyweights and Eddie helped him out.

Casimero is with Haymon?

cmdenny wrote:The betting market had Casimero as 8/11 an implied probability of 58%. It wasn't a forlorn hope on paper.

The odds were skewed by British money on Edwards thinking Johnny Foreigner was a bum because they'd never seen him.

On one hand you have people saying that fighters like Inoue, Ruenroeng, Tanaka and Ioka took titles quickly because their divisions lack depth (a massive fallacy but whatever), on the other hand you have people complaining that a guy was rushed.

The biggest issue is that Edwards had never fought anyone above British level. They should have given him an international guy to test the water, someone like Yodmongkol, Noknoi Sitthiprasert, Eaktawan Krungthepthonburi, Francisco Ropdriguez Jr, Ramon Garcia Hirales or Takuya Kogawa...even they might have been too much too soon though.

The Flyweight division (and as Paul Butler found out against Tete) the Super Flyweight division lack talent in the UK but internationally are strong divisions. Their is no need to rush someone, but if you are going to rush them, test them properly on their rush. Inoue had Taguchi, Tanaka had Hara and more recently Higa's had Diale.

Casimero is a proven, high level fighter with world class wins on the road, it was foolish to think Edwards was going to hold his own with the Filipino because he was a "good amateur". But Casimero hasn't distinguished himself from the likes of Estrada and Ioka, Nietes is now at 112, Higa looks like a force of nature at the weight, Zoda looks like a brute, Reveco, Mthalane, Arroyo, Viloria and Guevara, are all brilliant fighters. And that's ignoring the fast tracked Muhammad Waseem looks like something a bit special (Waseem is another who has been fast tracked properly).

As to answer why Eddie threw him in, it might well be that Eddie's seen the depth (and the emerging talent - Zoda, Higa, Waseem) at Flyweight and thought "now or never", or might well have seen it as a bout he genuinely believed Edwards would win. Whatever we now know more about Edwards than we did previously...gutsy kid, who can bounce back from the loss, but needs to do a lot more before fighting at that level again. Get him a plane ticket to Tokyo and get him in the gyms over there or in Mexico, or in Thailand, or in the Philippines, get him ring time with fighters in the same division then get him back in the ring. The sparring here and in Marbella at the lower weights isn't good enough.

Boxing Prospect wrote:

The Law wrote:I think Eddie did Al Haymon a favour and will call in on that favour in due course. Haymon has too many fighters and struggles to get them all fights, especially a flyweight like Casimero. Haymon asked Eddie if he had any flyweights and Eddie helped him out.

Casimero is with Haymon?

Yes, in a recent interview Eddie Hearn said he received a call from Al Haymon asking him whether he has a flyweight as stated above. I think it was an IFL interview

Boxing Prospect wrote:

The Law wrote:I think Eddie did Al Haymon a favour and will call in on that favour in due course. Haymon has too many fighters and struggles to get them all fights, especially a flyweight like Casimero. Haymon asked Eddie if he had any flyweights and Eddie helped him out.

Casimero is with Haymon?

cmdenny wrote:The betting market had Casimero as 8/11 an implied probability of 58%. It wasn't a forlorn hope on paper.

The odds were skewed by British money on Edwards thinking Johnny Foreigner was a bum because they'd never seen him.

On one hand you have people saying that fighters like Inoue, Ruenroeng, Tanaka and Ioka took titles quickly because their divisions lack depth (a massive fallacy but whatever), on the other hand you have people complaining that a guy was rushed.

The biggest issue is that Edwards had never fought anyone above British level. They should have given him an international guy to test the water, someone like Yodmongkol, Noknoi Sitthiprasert, Eaktawan Krungthepthonburi, Francisco Ropdriguez Jr, Ramon Garcia Hirales or Takuya Kogawa...even they might have been too much too soon though.

The Flyweight division (and as Paul Butler found out against Tete) the Super Flyweight division lack talent in the UK but internationally are strong divisions. Their is no need to rush someone, but if you are going to rush them, test them properly on their rush. Inoue had Taguchi, Tanaka had Hara and more recently Higa's had Diale.

Casimero is a proven, high level fighter with world class wins on the road, it was foolish to think Edwards was going to hold his own with the Filipino because he was a "good amateur". But Casimero hasn't distinguished himself from the likes of Estrada and Ioka, Nietes is now at 112, Higa looks like a force of nature at the weight, Zoda looks like a brute, Reveco, Mthalane, Arroyo, Viloria and Guevara, are all brilliant fighters. And that's ignoring the fast tracked Muhammad Waseem looks like something a bit special (Waseem is another who has been fast tracked properly).

As to answer why Eddie threw him in, it might well be that Eddie's seen the depth (and the emerging talent - Zoda, Higa, Waseem) at Flyweight and thought "now or never", or might well have seen it as a bout he genuinely believed Edwards would win. Whatever we now know more about Edwards than we did previously...gutsy kid, who can bounce back from the loss, but needs to do a lot more before fighting at that level again. Get him a plane ticket to Tokyo and get him in the gyms over there or in Mexico, or in Thailand, or in the Philippines, get him ring time with fighters in the same division then get him back in the ring. The sparring here and in Marbella at the lower weights isn't good enough.

I just think a lot of promoters Including Eddie have a lack of knowledge when it comes to the little guys which trips them up occasionally, warren did the same with tete

Incidentally, I'm always impressed with Boxing Prospect's knowledge of the lower weights. I've always enjoyed the sub- featherweights, saw Lopez,( the Robinson of lighter guys) many times live (albeit as an undercard fighter) , but am mindful I know little about the fighters.

So, thanks BP.

The Haymon explanation sounds most likely.

ILikeBeer wrote:I don't see the problem with Charlie Edwards up taking the fight. These days, we're used to top fighters avoiding each other, now we're moaning that the game a fight too early.

If anything, we should be criticising his opponent. What sort of world title defence is against an 8-0 novice?

I don't really understand this...since we complain about top fighters avoiding each other (note: 'top fighters' implies they're on the same general level), there is no basis to criticize a novice being moved too quickly up in levels? Many people assume that Edwards will have gained a lot in defeat, but it's not always a sure thing; that type of loss can lead to drops in confidence, he wasn't really competitive and didn't show many signs of adapting, and the concussion he probably suffered (he was well out of it at the end and not responding to the ref) could impair his durability in the future.

By the way, thinking about it from Casimero's perspective I can't blame him.....it was an easy defense for what was probably a good purse by his standards. If he was a betting man he would've been wise to load up on himself at those ridiculously close "we don't know anything about him" odds too.

Loynesy wrote:Incidentally, I'm always impressed with Boxing Prospect's knowledge of the lower weights. I've always enjoyed the sub- featherweights, saw Lopez,( the Robinson of lighter guys) many times live (albeit as an undercard fighter) , but am mindful I know little about the fighters.

So, thanks BP.

BP is the Asian boxing and little guy king of the forum

crusader wrote:

ILikeBeer wrote:I don't see the problem with Charlie Edwards up taking the fight. These days, we're used to top fighters avoiding each other, now we're moaning that the game a fight too early.

If anything, we should be criticising his opponent. What sort of world title defence is against an 8-0 novice?

I don't really understand this...since we complain about top fighters avoiding each other (note: 'top fighters' implies they're on the same general level), there is no basis to criticize a novice being moved too quickly up in levels? Many people assume that Edwards will have gained a lot in defeat, but it's not always a sure thing; that type of loss can lead to drops in confidence, he wasn't really competitive and didn't show many signs of adapting, and the concussion he probably suffered (he was well out of it at the end and not responding to the ref) could impair his durability in the future.

By the way, thinking about it from Casimero's perspective I can't blame him.....it was an easy defense for what was probably a good purse by his standards. If he was a betting man he would've been wise to load up on himself at those ridiculously close "we don't know anything about him" odds too.

By top fighters, I kind of mean professional fighters. Should've phrased that better.

My point being, I'd rather criticise Casimero for fighting a novice, then for a novice taking on a big fight. It was too soon for Edwards, undoubtedly, but you can't criticise him for taking big fights if the opportunity arises.

Well, the opportunity was there, but if they did their research on Casimero I don't know why they liked their chances. Title shots come more often in the lower divisions, and I think Edwards could've gone into one vastly better prepared than he was; he arguably hadn't fought anyone in the top 120 worldwide, whereas Casimero was proven world class, no worse than top 5 at the weight, and clearly a dangerous puncher.

Interesting to see how Edwards does in the future, and whether he comes back stronger from that man vs boy beating.

crusader wrote:Well, the opportunity was there, but if they did their research on Casimero I don't know why they liked their chances. Title shots come more often in the lower divisions, and I think Edwards could've gone into one vastly better prepared than he was; he arguably hadn't fought anyone in the top 120 worldwide, whereas Casimero was proven world class, no worse than top 5 at the weight, and clearly a dangerous puncher.

Interesting to see how Edwards does in the future, and whether he comes back stronger from that beating.

Well, he has now. Good experience for him, if nothing else.

Maybe, but we shouldn't immediately assume that he'll benefit from it. It was pretty one-sided (I think the best learning experiences come in competitive fights) and he never showed signs that he could adapt to Casimero for more than a little while; it was all the same quick but featherfisted jabs and straights from too far away. He was also hurt in about four different rounds and looked out of it when the fight was stopped; concussions can have long-lasting impacts and his durability could be worse in the future.

Apart from that, he seemed like a very confident fighter prior to the bout, but that's the type of one-sided beatdown that make make a fighter doubt himself. I usually am for fighters challenge themselves, but like many other posters I think this was an excessively drastic step-up.

ILikeBeer wrote:I don't see the problem with Charlie Edwards up taking the fight. These days, we're used to top fighters avoiding each other, now we're moaning that the game a fight too early.

If anything, we should be criticising his opponent. What sort of world title defence is against an 8-0 novice?

Maybe we should ask Omar Narvaez what he was doing facing a 7-0 guy in December 2014...or what Adrian Hernandez was doing facing an 5-0 guy in April 2014, Tacy Macalos sure shouldn't have fought a 6-0 guy in May 1989, god only knows what a then 35-0-1 Oleydong Sithsamerchai was doing facing a 6-0 (4) guy in February 2011, Daorung Chuwatana should have been ashamed for facing a 3-0 (3) guy around 11 years ago, Perico Fernandez should have asked his team why he was facing a 2-0 (2) guy that was just an unfair fight in 1975!

Heck the guy Caimsero won the title from was 11-0 when he won the belt...aged 34! ...and he defended it against a 6-0 guy

If a champion is made an offer that is financially rewarding why should they turn it down? Are they there to protect the ill prepared fighters who's team have thrown them to the wolves? Do we really want to see fewer fighters given shots early, especially if they are good enough?

Boxing Prospect wrote: Maybe we should ask Omar Narvaez what he was doing facing a 7-0 guy in December 2014...or what Adrian Hernandez was doing facing an 5-0 guy in April 2014, Tacy Macalos sure shouldn't have fought a 6-0 guy in May 1989, god only knows what a then 35-0-1 Oleydong Sithsamerchai was doing facing a 6-0 (4) guy in February 2011, Daorung Chuwatana should have been ashamed for facing a 3-0 (3) guy around 11 years ago, Perico Fernandez should have asked his team why he was facing a 2-0 (2) guy that was just an unfair fight in 1975!

Heck the guy Caimsero won the title from was 11-0 when he won the belt...aged 34! ...and he defended it against a 6-0 guy

If a champion is made an offer that is financially rewarding why should they turn it down? Are they there to protect the ill prepared fighters who's team have thrown them to the wolves? Do we really want to see fewer fighters given shots early, especially if they are good enough?

You could use that logic about either fighter.