BoxRec

I often view fighters from different eras with similar abilities and skills.

Primo Carnera = Bonecrusher Smith.

Joe Frazier = Rocky Marciano

Sr Robinson = SR Leonard

Ron Lyle = Hassim Rahman

I'd like to read other poster's ones.






The = is of course not literal

Don't get the similarity between Carnera and Smith.

Frazier and Marciano have some similaities, as do Robinson and Leonard.
I guess Lyle and Rahman are vaguely similar, but not that much.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Don't get the similarity between Carnera and Smith.

Frazier and Marciano have some similaities, as do Robinson and Leonard.
I guess Lyle and Rahman are vaguely similar, but not that much.

I see Carnera and Bonecrusher as obviously big guys who could punch a bit and take a decent shot. Smith probably hit harder. They were both limited.

golden oldie wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Don't get the similarity between Carnera and Smith.

Frazier and Marciano have some similaities, as do Robinson and Leonard.
I guess Lyle and Rahman are vaguely similar, but not that much.

Can you please explain to me exactly what similarities Leonard, and Walker Smith had, other than both were known as Sugar Ray, and both were black guys from America?

Please don't tell me both had " worthwhile " careers at Welter, and Middle weight, because they DIDN'T. One had 28 fights at 147 or lower, and a mere 12 above that weight. Meanwhile the REAL Sugar Ray had 113, at Welter or below, and a further 85 above Welter.

NO comparison there methinks.

Well yes they fought in different eras and Leonard did not have nearly as many fights. Had Robinson fought in Leonard's era, he would have fought a lot less. Had Leonard fought in Robinson's era, he would have fought a lot more. And of course Robinson did not lose several prime years because of an eye injury.

I was going by the styles and ability. Both were great all-around fighters. They each had great hand speed, threw great combinations, moved very well on their feet, were good defensive fighters but could take a punch.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

golden oldie wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Don't get the similarity between Carnera and Smith.

Frazier and Marciano have some similaities, as do Robinson and Leonard.
I guess Lyle and Rahman are vaguely similar, but not that much.

Can you please explain to me exactly what similarities Leonard, and Walker Smith had, other than both were known as Sugar Ray, and both were black guys from America?

Please don't tell me both had " worthwhile " careers at Welter, and Middle weight, because they DIDN'T. One had 28 fights at 147 or lower, and a mere 12 above that weight. Meanwhile the REAL Sugar Ray had 113, at Welter or below, and a further 85 above Welter.

NO comparison there methinks.

Well yes they fought in different eras and Leonard did not have nearly as many fights. Had Robinson fought in Leonard's era, he would have fought a lot less. Had Leonard fought in Robinson's era, he would have fought a lot more. And of course Robinson did not lose several prime years because of an eye injury.

I was going by the styles and ability. Both were great all-around fighters. They each had great hand speed, threw great combinations, moved very well on their feet, were good defensive fighters but could take a punch.

Leonard never lost once due to an eye injury. He lost because he was past his prime fighting good fighters for the most part, but he also should've lost the Hearns rematch, and Hearns would've been a handful for him any time they fought. Hearns is the guy that jacked his eye up in the first place.

Chris Byrd=Jimmy Young
Mike Tyson=Jack Dempsey
shawn porter=Gene fullmer?
Tim Bradley=Evander Holyfield
Max Baer=Hasim Rahman

I've always had a minor Trinidad/Arguello thing in my head. Alexis was obviously much greater, but they had similar strengths and weaknesses.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I've always had a minor Trinidad/Arguello thing in my head. Alexis was obviously much greater, but they had similar strengths and weaknesses.

Very much so

Sam Langford - James Toney

Not saying Toney was near as good, but both were middleweights who got fat and still beat bigger guys.

golden oldie wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:

golden oldie wrote:
Can you please explain to me exactly what similarities Leonard, and Walker Smith had, other than both were known as Sugar Ray, and both were black guys from America?

Please don't tell me both had " worthwhile " careers at Welter, and Middle weight, because they DIDN'T. One had 28 fights at 147 or lower, and a mere 12 above that weight. Meanwhile the REAL Sugar Ray had 113, at Welter or below, and a further 85 above Welter.

NO comparison there methinks.

Well yes they fought in different eras and Leonard did not have nearly as many fights. Had Robinson fought in Leonard's era, he would have fought a lot less. Had Leonard fought in Robinson's era, he would have fought a lot more. And of course Robinson did not lose several prime years because of an eye injury.

I was going by the styles and ability. Both were great all-around fighters. They each had great hand speed, threw great combinations, moved very well on their feet, were good defensive fighters but could take a punch.

To be quite honest that is something of an urban myth. Leonard had his first eye operation on May 9th 82.

Just 6 months later On November 9, 1982, Leonard invited Marvin Hagler and other boxing dignitaries to a charity event in Baltimore, Maryland to hear him announce whether he would continue his career. Standing in a boxing ring with Howard Cosell, the master of ceremonies, Leonard announced his retirement, saying a bout with Hagler would unfortunately never happen. Leonard maintained his eye was fully healed, but that he just didn't want to box anymore.

On the second occasion.

A bout with Philadelphia's Kevin Howard, who was 20–4–1, was scheduled for February 25, 1984. The fight was postponed when Leonard had minor surgery on his right eye to fix a loose retina. This latest eye problem further fueled the flames of those who opposed Leonard's comeback, Leonard and Howard fought on May 11, 1984.

Which as you can see was a delay of less than 3 months. So in total Leonard lost a MAXIMUM 9 months of his career due to eye injuries, the rest of his years of retirement were purely a matter of convenience.

I would say that Robinson was the far harder puncher of the 2 ( as evidenced by the guys he was able to KO though giving away plenty of weight ) and probably had the greater fighting brain, tbh.

No. It's not an urban myth. It is the truth.

He was supposed to fight Roger Stafford in 1982. It was discovered he had the detached retina. He pulled out of the Stafford fight and retired.
He went back and forth as whether or not to comeback. He finally did have surgery on it.

Had he never had the eyes problems, he never would have retired in 1982. He would have kept fighting. We can guess as to what would have happened. I think he fights another year or so at welterweight with about three more fights at the weight. He would have eventually moved up to jr middleweight. He probably would have had more fights with Benitez, Duran, and Hearns. Eventually he would have moved up to middleweight.

Had he never had eye problems, he would have had about a dozen or so fights between 1982 and 1987.
It was not convenient for Leonard to miss most of prime. He lost a lot of money and the chance to compete.
Robinson was the harder puncher, but Leonard could punch very hard. He scored devastating knockout against Andy Price and Davey Boy Green and had several stoppages against high level competition.
Don't think Robinson had a better boxing brain. Leonard usually (not always) fought pretty smart, while Robinson engaged toe to toe too much with guys he could have outboxed.
It was not convenient for Leonard to miss most of prime. He lost a lot of money and the chance to compete.

Cygnus475 wrote:Chris Byrd=Jimmy Young
Mike Tyson=Jack Dempsey
shawn porter=Gene fullmer?
Tim Bradley=Evander Holyfield
Max Baer=Hasim Rahman

Tyson-Dempsey is one of mine.

I see Jimmy Young as more of a Mike "The Bounty" Hunter, if you remember him.

Bradley and Holy are built similar but Holy has more power,

Jack Sharkey-Jerry Quarry. Both had boxing ability and power, but neither put it together at the same time.

He could not decide whether to fight or not with his eye problems.
Do you seriously think if he never had any eye problems, that he would not have had several more fights?

Ambling Alp II wrote:He could not decide whether to fight or not with his eye problems.
Do you seriously think if he never had any eye problems, that he would not have had several more fights?

He certainly had eye problems. I'm not disputing that, but I don't think they affected his performances because by then he'd been away from the ring enough for his eye to heal for the most part. He didn't lose fights because of his eye, but he definitely has a lot less fighters in his career because of the eye. I'm sure Leonard would've had at least 10 to 15 more fights on his record if the eye injury had never happened.

I pretty much agree with that. He lost to to Norris because he was past it, and to Camacho because he was way, way past it. Was not because with eyes.

Frank Bruno and Anthony Joshua:
British
Musclebound
Robotic
Big punchers against lower level fighters.

Joshua seems a bit more fluid and a better boxer, but until he gets his Bonecrusher Smith and Witherspoon equivalents, we'll never know.

Rahman is being flattered here by comparisons to Lyle and Baer who were both much better than him IMO, although his best win is better than either of those. My comparisons are mostly based on fighting styles rather than the careers they had or how good they were.

Jess Willard = Vitali Klitschko
Chavez Jr = Gennady Golovkin (this one is more down to design, as Abel Sanchez has re-modeled GGG to fight more like Chavez Jr)
Mayweather = Broner (more by appearance than anything, Mayweather is way more skilled)

Vitali is nothing like willard other than being tall and awkward. Vitali was a warrior and actually had good fundamentals and a huge heart. Willard was like a lazy lethargic bear.

I see Jimmy Young as more of a Mike "The Bounty" Hunter, if you remember him.

Never heard if him, I'll look him up

Tony1244 wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Don't get the similarity between Carnera and Smith.

Frazier and Marciano have some similaities, as do Robinson and Leonard.
I guess Lyle and Rahman are vaguely similar, but not that much.

I see Carnera and Bonecrusher as obviously big guys who could punch a bit and take a decent shot. Smith probably hit harder. They were both limited.

No question at all Bonecrusher was a far bigger puncher. He cracked people out, hence the nickname.

Only similarity I can see is if you're limiting your view Smith's performance against Tyson.

GGG and Chavez Sr only because he seen how his Trainer said he took a lot of Julio style and taught it too GGG after watching some of the Great Mexicans fight's you can see they are similar in the way they walk down opponent's and cut off the ring the big difference is the head movement Julio was an under-rated defensive fighter who was excellent at making opponent's miss with head movement while GGG head movement is almost non existence another fighter who was a Middleweight that reminds me a of GGG......was La Motta but without the Devastating Power

golden oldie wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:He could not decide whether to fight or not with his eye problems.
Do you seriously think if he never had any eye problems, that he would not have had several more fights?

That is your take on the matter, and you are more than entitled to it.

Some people might interpret the following differently.

Just 6 months later On November 9, 1982, Leonard invited Marvin Hagler and other boxing dignitaries to a charity event in Baltimore, Maryland to hear him announce whether he would continue his career. Standing in a boxing ring with Howard Cosell, the master of ceremonies, Leonard announced his retirement, saying a bout with Hagler would unfortunately never happen. Leonard maintained his eye was fully healed, but that he just didn't want to box anymore.

For instance they might believe Leonard didn't fancy Hagler between 82 - 84, or indeed rematching Tommy Hearns at 154 during that time who had beaten 4 Middles, and 2 Light Middles, and who was to destroy Duran in 2 rounds a month after SRL fought Howard. The same folks might believe the further 3 years retirement was simply a matter of convenience keeping a close eye on Hagler to note the decline in his performances.

Because one thing we know about Leonard is that he was afraid of a challenge.

Spare me the anti-Leonard BS.
So Leonard beat Hearns, then was afraid of him, but then fought him again. Yeah, that makes sense.

He cherry picked, and made weight stips? He fought Hagler at 160. Hagler had been that weight virtually his whole career. Leonard never weighed that much for a fight in his life. Why isn't Hagler accused of weight stips or cherry picking for not fighting at a lower weight?

At the end of the day, the other guy doesn't have to fight Leonard at whatever weight or stips if he doesn't want to.

Leonard beat 8 Top 10 contenders before he ever got a title shot. Duran did not do that. Hearns did not do that. Hagler did not do that. Who has done that since?
In less than a two period of time, he had four fights against ATGs.
Off for three years, he moved up in weight to win the middleweight title.
The guy went out of way to fight the best. Ridiculous to say he was cherry picking.

Hagler was the #1 middleweight in the world for a couple years before he got a title shot.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Spare me the anti-Leonard BS.
So Leonard beat Hearns, then was afraid of him, but then fought him again. Yeah, that makes sense.

He cherry picked, and made weight stips? He fought Hagler at 160. Hagler had been that weight virtually his whole career. Leonard never weighed that much for a fight in his life. Why isn't Hagler accused of weight stips or cherry picking for not fighting at a lower weight?

At the end of the day, the other guy doesn't have to fight Leonard at whatever weight or stips if he doesn't want to.

Leonard beat 8 Top 10 contenders before he ever got a title shot. Duran did not do that. Hearns did not do that. Hagler did not do that. Who has done that since?
In less than a two period of time, he had four fights against ATGs.
Off for three years, he moved up in weight to win the middleweight title.
The guy went out of way to fight the best. Ridiculous to say he was cherry picking.

I know your a big Leonard fan and normally you post very sensible stuff...but it's well known and also acknowledged by Leonard himself that he cherry picked and indeed waited Hagler out, preserving himself. He's great, amazing fighter who put it on the line at the start of his career...but once he had the fame, the star value, the money, he milked it. Fair play to him, he's up there with Gene Tunney as the smartest best preserved ATG I can think of.

Tomasino wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Spare me the anti-Leonard BS.
So Leonard beat Hearns, then was afraid of him, but then fought him again. Yeah, that makes sense.

He cherry picked, and made weight stips? He fought Hagler at 160. Hagler had been that weight virtually his whole career. Leonard never weighed that much for a fight in his life. Why isn't Hagler accused of weight stips or cherry picking for not fighting at a lower weight?

At the end of the day, the other guy doesn't have to fight Leonard at whatever weight or stips if he doesn't want to.

Leonard beat 8 Top 10 contenders before he ever got a title shot. Duran did not do that. Hearns did not do that. Hagler did not do that. Who has done that since?
In less than a two period of time, he had four fights against ATGs.
Off for three years, he moved up in weight to win the middleweight title.
The guy went out of way to fight the best. Ridiculous to say he was cherry picking.

I know your a big Leonard fan and normally you post very sensible stuff...but it's well known and also acknowledged by Leonard himself that he cherry picked and indeed waited Hagler out, preserving himself. He's great, amazing fighter who put it on the line at the start of his career...but once he had the fame, the star value, the money, he milked it. Fair play to him, he's up there with Gene Tunney as the smartest best preserved ATG I can think of.

he certainly didn't fear anyone, but he wanted nothing to do with a hearns rematch until he thought he was done. Even then he drained him down.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Spare me the anti-Leonard BS.
So Leonard beat Hearns, then was afraid of him, but then fought him again. Yeah, that makes sense.

He cherry picked, and made weight stips? He fought Hagler at 160. Hagler had been that weight virtually his whole career. Leonard never weighed that much for a fight in his life. Why isn't Hagler accused of weight stips or cherry picking for not fighting at a lower weight?

At the end of the day, the other guy doesn't have to fight Leonard at whatever weight or stips if he doesn't want to.

Leonard beat 8 Top 10 contenders before he ever got a title shot. Duran did not do that. Hearns did not do that. Hagler did not do that. Who has done that since?
In less than a two period of time, he had four fights against ATGs.
Off for three years, he moved up in weight to win the middleweight title.
The guy went out of way to fight the best. Ridiculous to say he was cherry picking.

I know your a big Leonard fan and normally you post very sensible stuff...but it's well known and also acknowledged by Leonard himself that he cherry picked and indeed waited Hagler out, preserving himself. He's great, amazing fighter who put it on the line at the start of his career...but once he had the fame, the star value, the money, he milked it. Fair play to him, he's up there with Gene Tunney as the smartest best preserved ATG I can think of.

he certainly didn't fear anyone, but he wanted nothing to do with a hearns rematch until he thought he was done. Even then he drained him down.

The loss to Duran and near loss to Hearns made him think twice. His eye didn't help however it didn't rob him of too much. He actually waited till Marvin told him he was almost done, sick of the game. He must have known of Haglers heavy drinking by this stage as they were pals. It's a shame we didn't get to see then fight earlier but it is what it is.

I like Haglers somewhat bitter but true quote " ain't nobody kicked my ass!"