BoxRec

Al Perno brought this up on another thread and I thought it was best to discuss it here. Here is what he said:

Reading this thread just got me annoyed – why is Ray Mancini in the International Boxing Hall of Fame?

His biggest win is over a ring-worn Bobby Chacon (probably Mancini’s best outing); second best a KO of Arturo Frias for the title; third best a UD 10 over Ramirez. – Is that really enough to get you into a ‘hall of fame’?

Then he lost to

• Haugen by KO
• Camacho by SD
• Bramble by UD
• Bramble by KO
• Arguello by KO

Really – this is a hall of fame career?

Always get me down fight with Kim,that tragedy.

Yes and here's why.


You and I have an honorable disagreement on this subject matter, but here is an example and case in point.

It's the "Hall of Fame" ...not the "Hall of Skill".


He was well known, very successful, and I disagree that Chacon was his best win, though probably the best name on his roster.

He was "Famous" for his work ethic, his loss to Arguello, (who showered him with praise) a song written about him and Bobby Chacon, and the tragic fight with Kim.

Fame comes to many, who may or may not share in the best skills,and/or the best records.


There is at least one other fighter that could very likely make it in based on similar circumstances....and that's Gatti.

Though I wouldn't cast a vote his way, I would not lament, or be surprised if he makes it someday.

BoxBuzz wrote:Yes and here's why.


You and I have an honorable disagreement on this subject matter, but here is an example and case in point.

It's the "Hall of Fame" ...not the "Hall of Skill".


He was well known, very successful, and I disagree that Chacon was his best win, though probably the best name on his roster.

He was "Famous" for his work ethic, his loss to Arguello, (who showered him with praise) a song written about him and Bobby Chacon, and the tragic fight with Kim.

Fame comes to many, who may or may not share in the best skills,and/or the best records.


There is at least one other fighter that could very likely make it in based on similar circumstances....and that's Gatti.

Though I wouldn't cast a vote his way, I would not lament, or be surprised if he makes it someday.

I take your point about 'fame' - as you say it is not the Hall of Accomplishments - and as far as fame goes I realize that you can't have a discussion about the golden age of lightweights (circa 1981-1989 [my opinion]) without bringing Mancini into the discussion, but when you look at most (almost all) of the other names on the list there is both fame and accomplishment. Anyway it was just a reaction I had when I was trying to find a fighter with two HOFers on his record.

Who then do you think was his best win, or was his best fight a win? - I my opinion Arguello is not good source, Arguello praised everyone, he was too nice a guy.

Gatti - If i may? - There lies the rub - I can completely understand Gatti based on what be both just agreed too, but then should we call forth Micky Ward as well (he's even 'got his own movie,' Gatti didn't) and then a list begins . . . the fame thing without proper accomplishment can get funky. - I just went and looked to make sure Ward wasn't on the list. lol - He's not.

I don't think Mancini should be in the Hall of Famer; although there are others who don't deserve it either.

I will point out some things in Mancini's defense though:
The losses are deceiving.
He gave Arguello a very tough fight. A lot of other very good fighters were not as competitive with Arguello.
He could have got the decision in the second fight with bramble. He should have got the decision against Camacho. He had not fought in three years when he lost to Haugen.

He did beat Jose Luis Ramirez very convincingly. Ramirez was a very good fighter.

Very underrated fighter these days. His best win was his dominating decision over Ramirez. The arguello loss was a great result. I wouldn't vote for him but he was a level above someone like gatti. As for you buzz, hall of fame means the best of the best. It flows much better than hall of great or something else. His greatest fame was chasing the title his father never got a shot at. He was 10 times more famous than gatti could dream of being. Boxing was HUGE then.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Very underrated fighter these days. His best win was his dominating decision over Ramirez. The arguello loss was a great result. I wouldn't vote for him but he was a level above someone like gatti. As for you buzz, hall of fame means the best of the best. It flows much better than hall of great or something else. His greatest fame was chasing the title his father never got a shot at. He was 10 times more famous than gatti could dream of being. Boxing was HUGE then.

I don't honestly disagree with you, however the words "best of the best" leads one down just the rabbit hole I mentioned.


I guess Kalan would leave out Armstrong, since his skills were "limited" leading with his head and all. I would tolerate Mancini because I would understand the emotion of the voters.
but "Best of the best" is hard to determine. Another "measurement" I would not abide would be the "percentage" measurement. Which I guess would open the door for Valero and Ottke...and I guess Ibeabuchi.

So it's a hard nut to crack and get it right. But I can tolerate some slop.....and Ray would fit into the "tolerated" list very easily in my world. Not so much Gatti, but Valero? Ouch... Alll I can do is hope that percentage math does not rule in this case.

If you're going by fame, gatti still doesn't belong. Millions more people watched boza Edwards fights.

Valero never fought anyone, I don't care if you're 100-0. Tens of thousands of losses are greater accomplishments than any of his wins. Soon enough gatti will be off the hook when vitali replaces him as the most undeserving inductee by a country mile.

The Arguello fight was close to being a Nelson vs Sanchez type loss, in terms of the level of performance, IMO.

Mancini was only 20 when he fought Arguello too, plus it was a 15 rounder. Wasn't he ahead in the early rounds too?

Keko wrote:Always get me down fight with Kim,that tragedy.

Certainly was a tragedy the mother of Kim committed suicide and so did the ref

I think Mancini belongs in the IBHOF.
No, he wasn't the most skilled fighter of his era by a long shot & his record isn't filled with victories over the best either, but sometimes fighters deserve to be enshrined because their careers transcend the sport. And, enrich it by compelling non-boxing fans to become fans. And, Ray & his fights did that in spades.
He was definitely a big part of the "Golden Age" of boxing in that era.
And, I believe Gatti belongs for the very same reasons. Peace.

sweetviolenturge wrote:I think Mancini belongs in the IBHOF.
No, he wasn't the most skilled fighter of his era by a long shot & his record isn't filled with victories over the best either, but sometimes fighters deserve to be enshrined because their careers transcend the sport. And, enrich it by compelling non-boxing fans to become fans. And, Ray & his fights did that in spades.
He was definitely a big part of the "Golden Age" of boxing in that era.
And, I believe Gatti belongs for the very same reasons. Peace.

Gatti was unable to be competitive at a level Mancini reached and was nowhere near as famous. The internet age has us fans grouped, in Mancini's day kids talked about fights at school, adults at work and social gatherings. Running into someone in person that watches boxing the last couple decades is like hearing someone has leprosy. I remember being out drinking with a buddy that used to love boxing and dragging him out of a bar to watch gatti/ward.

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

Keko wrote:Always get me down fight with Kim,that tragedy.

Certainly was a tragedy the mother of Kim committed suicide and so did the ref

Yes total tragedy

If Barry McGuigan made it to the HOF, then Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini should also be in.

Also, these guys should be in:
Esteban De Jesus
Ernesto Marcel
Wilfredo Vazquez
Rafael Herrera
Donald Curry
Jose Luis Ramirez
Chucho Castillo

And I can make more other cases. For me, to make it in any boxing hall of fame, you gotta be a great fighter that had some great accomplishments.

elmersalsa wrote:If Barry McGuigan made it to the HOF, then Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini should also be in.

Also, these guys should be in:
Esteban De Jesus
Ernesto Marcel
Wilfredo Vazquez
Rafael Herrera
Donald Curry
Jose Luis Ramirez
Chucho Castillo

And I can make more other cases. For me, to make it in any boxing hall of fame, you gotta be a great fighter that had some great accomplishments.

Lionel Rose should already BE IN IBHOF Former World Bantamweight Champion Jofre in IBHOF succeeded by Harada who's also in IBHOF succeeded by Rose who's NOT in IBHOF succeeded by Olivarez who's also in IBHOF

If Bellew gets in because he was in a Rocky movie, I'll fornicating crack!

davie wrote:If Bellew gets in because he was in a Rocky movie, I'll effing crack!