BoxRec

I know this is not British related but this is the forum I've always posted on so I'd be interested in views of the regulars on here. I've been meaning for a while to analyse quality of opposition at the time the opposition was faced, for each of the above. I've used "The Ring" ratings for reference as they are the only ones I can find going back that far.

1. Oscar De La Hoya. Universally known for always wanting to fight the best. Oscar fought 24 opponents ranked in a divisional top 10 at the end of the prior year. 16 of those opponents were ranked top 5 and 8 opponents rankings were in a different division to the division to where the fight took place.

7 opponents had top 10 P4P rankings, being: Whitaker (#3, 1996), Trinidad (#4, 1998), Mosley (#5, 1999), Mosley (#10, 2002), Hopkins (#2, 2003), Mayweather (#1, 2006) & Pacquiao (#2, 2007). Against those P4P opponents Oscar went 1-6, beating only Whitaker, but these names are undoubtedly the very best of his generation (a case could be made that all bar Mosley 2 should have been ranked no.1) and Oscar fought prime or close to prime versions of them (even though he enjoyed a weight advantage against FM, while his perceived weight advantage against MP backfired).

2. Manny Pacquiao. Like Oscar, Manny fought 24 opponents ranked in a divisional top 10 at the end of the prior year. 22 of those opponents were ranked top 5 and 8 opponents rankings were in a different division to where the fight took place.

13 opponents had top 10 P4P rankings, being: Barrera (#3, 2002), Morales (#8, 2004), Morales x2 (#6, 2005), Barrera (#6, 2006), Marquez (#3, 2007), Hatton (#10, 2008), Cotto (#8, 2008), Marquez (#4, 2010), Bradley (#8, 2011), Marquez (#5, 2011), Bradley (#3, 2013) & Mayweather (#1, 2014). Against those opponents Manny went 9-4.

You could arguably throw out Morales 3 given it’s unlikely he’d have kept a P4P rating after being stopped in their second bout earlier that year.

3. Floyd Mayweather. Floyd fought 23 opponents ranked in a divisional top 10 at the end of the prior year. 15 of those opponents were ranked top 5 and just 3 opponents rankings were in a different division to where the fight took place.

7 opponents had top 10 P4P rankings, being: Corrales (#5, 2000), Judah (#10, 2005), Hatton (#8, 2006), Marquez (#2, 2008), Mosley (#3, 2009), Guerrero (#10, 2012), Pacquiao (#2, 2014). Against those opponents Floyd went 7-0, winning all convincingly.

Again, you could throw Judah out here as he would have dropped form the rankings after losing to Baldomir, Guerrero was certainly not a consensus P4P player, and I personally don’t know how the Ring could have had the 2009 version of Mosley ranked #3 for beating Margarito. In hindsight Margarito was made for Mosley (he said it himself how he always found the Mexican style easy to deal with), and the post-Marg Mosley won just one of his next six fights (a razor thin decision over Pablo Cesar Cano). And in fear of being labelled as a hater I’m not going to dwell too much on the fact that Corales was a dead man walking when they met (weight problems and on domestic abuse charges which he was subsequently jailed for) because I don’t think that can be held against Floyd as a reason for fighting him.

4. Overall I think all resumes read impressively. It could be argued that Oscar was quickest to take on the biggest challenges having faced Whitaker, Trinidad and Mosley x2 in his prime, and continued to take on the toughest challenges as he aged in Hopkins, Mayweather & Pacquiao.

Manny also took on the toughest challenges at each weight throughout his career - look at how many of his divisional ranked opponents were top 5 (22 of them) compared to ODLH (16) & FM (15), and almost twice as many fights against P4P ranked opponents. Other than Mayweather I don’t think there’s anybody you can look at that could be argued he avoided or failed to fight at the right time, although nobody wanted to see Bradley 3 and we all would have preferred to see him fight Crawford rather than Vargas.

As for Floyd, it’s interesting to note that bouts against 6 of his P4P ranked opponents occurred at Welterweight, a weight not considered to be his best, though it is after all where he fought for the last ten years of his career. The questions over Judah, Guerrero, Mosley, and even the two weight blown up fat version of Marquez don’t reflect greatly on the quality of Floyd’s P4P opponents, which for a 49-0 self-proclaimed “TBE” is a little underwhelming, especially when you consider the P4P players he could have faced during that time, most notably Tszyu (P4P ranked 2002-2004), Margarito (2008), Cotto (2008-2009), Williams (2009), Bradley (2010-2012), prime Welter Pacquiao (2009-2011), and a top rated (albeit not P4P) opponent at Jr Lightweight in Joel Casamayor from 2000-2002.

For me Manny’s resume shades Floyd’s, whose could have and should have been greater, while Oscar is a great example of a fighter who continued to seek out the toughest challenges even when he was the money man of the sport. Another bonus point for Manny for the fact that up until he got KO'd by Marquez (after which he lost his killer instinct), he always kept the heat on his opponents to the very end, unlike Mayweather who took a safety first approach, regularly doing just enough to win rounds, again suggesting an unfilled potential. Oscar also can be accused of only doing enough at times, but that was more due to his tendency to gas out late in his fights.

Good stuff, personally I'd rather focus on general consensus #1 in the division at the time as opposed to P4P stuff for a few reasons.

1.... What about fighters in the P4P bracket but are jumping up multiple division (as an example looking at Hopkins' resume and him fighting DLH and Trinidad) - surely it is not the same as fighting a lesser ranked P4P fighter but in the correct division.

2.... Whilst "general consensus division #1" and "P4P" are both subjective, I would say P4P is more so. Look at Pacquiao as an example, both Morales and Bradley have risen in the P4P ranking in the 2nd fight.... Why? Because they "beat" MP in fight 1 and only that reason. Is that a particularly "good" thing when it comes to assessing fighters resume based on P4P ranking. For example, there is no Castillo on the Floyd list - yet, for a good part of Floyd's career he was a top 10 P4P fighter and one could argue his best was when he fought Floyd. Had Floyd been more established in 2002 - Castillo would have been a Top 10 P4P fighter for running him close in fight 1.... Just like Bradley rose for given MP a half decent fight.

I think if you class Floyd in terms of facing and beating the recognised #1 in the division, his resume will look more impressive than focusing on P4P rankings. For example, one of his best career wins has been completely overlooked (Saul Alvarez).

Good post,now id read the fights which were rip offs,ODLH never beat whittaker but did beat trinidad mayweather and mosley 2 imo,manny didnt won any of the marquez fights imo but did get ripped off against bradley 1,mayweather should of got beat by ODLH judah DLH got ripped off were as roger should of got his nephew DQd but this is boxing and imo as much as i dont like mayweather as a person(not that i know him personally) he fought the best and beat the best of his generation regardless of what weight what the judges scored or what us fans moan about we gotta give him credit for his skills and his record. But as a fan i loved DLH he knew how to excite the fans and how to fight. And manny is manny,i believe he had peds cause when u listen to paulie maliggnagi he knows manny has been taking peds and he holds a grudge against him,u dont fly through weights knocking top guys out in their own division when u struggle to knock featherweights out 18 months to 2 years prior

It's an absolute minefield of a question and one I'd like to see you post on Current scene. Each and every possible comparison between all of these opponents has been made there, time and again.

Without going into particulars, my feeling is there is slightly more quality in Mannys CV, Floyd certainly timed his fights and hand picked opponents ant the right time for him and perhaps the wrong weight for them.

The 1 thing that levels it all up is that Floyd won them all.
No matter what criticism can be levelled at him, his resume is still bloody impressive and to have come through it undefeated is fairly astounding.
Pacquiao lost 6, was KO'd 3 times and drew 2. This was at different weights, different stages of his career and against different levels of opponent. There's more quality on his resume overall, but he still must rank below Floyd.


ODLH I just never felt was quite at the elite level the other 2 were, he never looked unbeatable like Floyd or Manny were at stages. The quality of resume isn't far behind but again picked up 6 losses. He was criticised early for perhaps picking just the right time to catch Pernell and Chaves and when he took on similar names later at their actual peak, he got found out.

Chaves and Whitaker had fallen off the p4p number one slot by the time he'd fought them.

Interestingly ODLH and 2 of his future opponents, Mosely and Hopkins, occupied the top spot as well, in a period of time when RJJ should have been unquestionably the best fighter on the planet. 96-04.

DLH never fought an opponent with a losing record.

davie wrote:It's an absolute minefield of a question and one I'd like to see you post on Current scene. Each and every possible comparison between all of these opponents has been made there, time and again.

Without going into particulars, my feeling is there is slightly more quality in Mannys CV, Floyd certainly timed his fights and hand picked opponents ant the right time for him and perhaps the wrong weight for them.

The 1 thing that levels it all up is that Floyd won them all.
No matter what criticism can be levelled at him, his resume is still bloody impressive and to have come through it undefeated is fairly astounding.
Pacquiao lost 6, was KO'd 3 times and drew 2. This was at different weights, different stages of his career and against different levels of opponent. There's more quality on his resume overall, but he still must rank below Floyd.


ODLH I just never felt was quite at the elite level the other 2 were, he never looked unbeatable like Floyd or Manny were at stages. The quality of resume isn't far behind but again picked up 6 losses. He was criticised early for perhaps picking just the right time to catch Pernell and Chaves and when he took on similar names later at their actual peak, he got found out.

Chaves and Whitaker had fallen off the p4p number one slot by the time he'd fought them.

Interestingly ODLH and 2 of his future opponents, Mosely and Hopkins, occupied the top spot as well, in a period of time when RJJ should have been unquestionably the best fighter on the planet. 96-04.

Thats it,when u look at floyds record it looks great but then wen u disect it he hand picked opponents at the right time or drained them to near death to get in the ring with him. For excitement ODLH is top of these three but for skills of coming out of a career with your marbles intact and barely a scratch on his face floyd is top,manny was exciting too but i always think he must of been on something,to be able to stop guys from lightweight to light middle when he couldnt stop a featherweight doesnt make sense. Look what he done to margarito @ margarito's weight,doesnt happen that would be like naz moving upto light middle and ending winky rights career its silly,somethin doesnt sit right

thechump wrote:

davie wrote:It's an absolute minefield of a question and one I'd like to see you post on Current scene. Each and every possible comparison between all of these opponents has been made there, time and again.

Without going into particulars, my feeling is there is slightly more quality in Mannys CV, Floyd certainly timed his fights and hand picked opponents ant the right time for him and perhaps the wrong weight for them.

The 1 thing that levels it all up is that Floyd won them all.
No matter what criticism can be levelled at him, his resume is still bloody impressive and to have come through it undefeated is fairly astounding.
Pacquiao lost 6, was KO'd 3 times and drew 2. This was at different weights, different stages of his career and against different levels of opponent. There's more quality on his resume overall, but he still must rank below Floyd.


ODLH I just never felt was quite at the elite level the other 2 were, he never looked unbeatable like Floyd or Manny were at stages. The quality of resume isn't far behind but again picked up 6 losses. He was criticised early for perhaps picking just the right time to catch Pernell and Chaves and when he took on similar names later at their actual peak, he got found out.

Chaves and Whitaker had fallen off the p4p number one slot by the time he'd fought them.

Interestingly ODLH and 2 of his future opponents, Mosely and Hopkins, occupied the top spot as well, in a period of time when RJJ should have been unquestionably the best fighter on the planet. 96-04.

Thats it,when u look at floyds record it looks great but then wen u disect it he hand picked opponents at the right time or drained them to near death to get in the ring with him. For excitement ODLH is top of these three but for skills of coming out of a career with your marbles intact and barely a scratch on his face floyd is top,manny was exciting too but i always think he must of been on something,to be able to stop guys from lightweight to light middle when he couldnt stop a featherweight doesnt make sense. Look what he done to margarito @ margarito's weight,doesnt happen that would be like naz moving upto light middle and ending winky rights career its silly,somethin doesnt sit right

It is possible he was drained at FW, though I have to say, that looking at both him and Marquez in recent years, they look to me like they've been on HGH, the bones of the face in both men have some characteristic tell-tale signs of HGH abuse.

Let's not forget, the Manny of 2008-11 was a very much improved fighter in more ways than power.
I had my suspicions on PED use and still do (not a charge Floyd is 100% clear of either) but Pacquiao was still an evolving fighter, his transformation under Roach was startling and the technical improvements, from his early days as a one handed flyweight, outweigh the physical ones for me.

But another thing to note is the only person who went the distance with him at featherweight was a very good JMM.
1. Pacquiao knocked him down 3 times in that fight
2. JMM later went the distance with the same welterweight beast that splattered ODLH, Hatton, Cotto, Clotty, Margharito and Mosley.
3. A year later, that same JMM knocked him the fvck out, at WW.

The guys going the distance with him at lower weights, Barrera, Marquez and Moralez, were fantastic fighters, hard hard men and in the case of the first Moralez fight, utterly inspired on the night.

davie wrote:Let's not forget, the Manny of 2008-11 was a very much improved fighter in more ways than power.
I had my suspicions on PED use and still do (not a charge Floyd is 100% clear of either) but Pacquiao was still an evolving fighter, his transformation under Roach was startling and the technical improvements, from his early days as a one handed flyweight, outweigh the physical ones for me.

But another thing to note is the only person who went the distance with him at featherweight was a very good JMM.
1. Pacquiao knocked him down 3 times in that fight
2. JMM later went the distance with the same welterweight beast that splattered ODLH, Hatton, Cotto, Clotty, Margharito and Mosley.
3. A year later, that same JMM knocked him the fvck out, at WW.

The guys going the distance with him at lower weights, Barrera, Marquez and Moralez, were fantastic fighters, hard hard men and in the case of the first Moralez fight, utterly inspired on the night.

Manny is a great fighter but had a little help in the move through the weights,like u say the guys who went the distance with him are all time mexican boxing greats,i just cant see the same man that beat them on the night beating margarito,margarito was a beast,non stop coming forward throwing uppercuts and hooks basically grinding his opponent down,plus knockin mosley down so heavily in their fight and the cotto fight too,no one treated cotto like that ever but this little philipino knocks morales,diaz,ODLH,hatton,cotto makes clottey look like a turtle in its shell then makes margarito look like a big stiff,the list of fighters we just mentioned were seasoned at their weight yet little manny blew them all away,it dont make sense even when i say it now