BoxRec

Our third thread in the series, following the success of the Heavyweight & Light Heavyweight threads...

This is a game which will be decided by the wisdom of the crowd.

Each of us has our own opinions on who was better than who, or which achievement was greater than others.
But let's bring it all together and allow simple mathematics to decide it all.

The game is this, each poster names and ranks his Top 10 Middleweights of all time and with each ranking comes a certain number of points.
First place gets 10 points, tenth place gets 1 point - and everything fits in between.

Posters are NOT allowed to edit their posts or change their minds as it will effect the overall accumulated points for each fighter.

I will keep a track of the total scoring each time I'm online. This game has a 30-day deadline, after 30 days - the final points totals will be decided.
Our deadline day will be December 1st.

23 Posters declared:
davie
BoxBuzz
Give up
dr_devious
HyacinthusTurnipseed
elmersalsa
Kalan
ClivePatrickLyons
crl333
APerno
Tomasino
Keko
Seamus
pound per pound
cfang
Crease
Gilgamesh
keithmoonhangover
Techno89
Ezzard
SaadOffTheDeck
Ambling Alp II
BroughtonRulesRefuge


FINAL Scoreboard: (23 Members have voted)

1st - 196 pts Harry Greb
2nd - 181 pts Carlos Monzon
3rd - 168 pts Sugar Ray Robinson
4th - 165 pts Marvin Hagler
5th - 100 pts Stanley Ketchel
6th - 62 pts Mickey Walker
7th - 61 pts Bernard Hopkins
8th - 54 pts Bob Fitzsimmons
9th - 41 pts Sam Langford
10th - 26 pts Charley Burley

Tied 11th - 25 pts Roy Jones Jr
Tied 11th - 25 pts Dick Tiger
Tied 11th - 25 pts Gennady Golovkin
14th - 22 pts Jake LaMotta
15th - 21 pts Tiger Flowers
16th - 15 pts Mike Gibbons
17th - 13 pts Nino Benvenuti
Tied 18th - 12 pts James Toney
Tied 18th - 12 pts Tommy Ryan
20th - 9 pts Freddie Steele

Tied 21st - 8 pts Tony Zale
Tied 21st - 8 pts Marcel Cerdan
23rd 7 pts Holman Williams
Tied 24th - 3 pts Kid McCoy
Tied 24th - 3 pts Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
Tied 24th - 3 pts Billy Papke
Tied 24th - 3 pts Gene Fullmer
Tied 24th - 3 pts Billy Papke
28th - 2 pts Mike McCallum
29th - 1 pts Mike O'Dowd

Think this really could be the most difficult selection of them all.
So many great fighters over the decades... So much talent that came into the division.
What a tough choice...

Crease wrote:Think this really could be the most difficult selection of them all.
So many great fighters over the decades... So much talent that came into the division.
What a tough choice...

Exactly. The middleweight and bantamweight division are the hardest to pick a top 10. Lots of talent in both weight classes.

elmersalsa wrote:

Crease wrote:Think this really could be the most difficult selection of them all.
So many great fighters over the decades... So much talent that came into the division.
What a tough choice...

Exactly. The middleweight and bantamweight division are the hardest to pick a top 10. Lots of talent in both weight classes.

Welter same.

I'll give it a go first

Marvelous Marv Hagler
Harry Greb
Carlos Monzon
Sugar Ray Robinson
Stanley Ketchel
Mickey Walker
Dick Tiger
Tiger Flowers
Bernard Hopkins
Charlie Burley

Edit. I did that quirmte quickly. Now after 5 minutes of looking at rankings and I already disagree with myself.

My top 4 always change order but I reckon it will finish as the popular top 4. There are about 10 more names could dislodge that bottom 4 quite easily dependent on my mood

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Harry Greb
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Roy Jones Jr
5. Mickey Walker
6. Dick Tiger
7. Mike Gibbons
8. James Toney
9. Bernard Hopkins
0. Mike McCallum


Here is the state of the art, precisely accurate, and 100% certified objective and flawless list. Error free, and worthy of worldwide critical acclaim.
Even to think of varying it in the least, is to show your blatant ignorance of the irrefutable facts of the matter. Straight from the Akashik record
manifest in deeply etched, lightening stricken, stone tablets. Then carried painstakingly down from Mt Sinai on the backs of holy yaks, for YOU the little guy,....
to gaze upon. But be abbreviated with your staring, as you may find yourself blinded by the brilliance of it's unyielding truth and unarguable valorization of the worthy.

BoxBuzz wrote:1. Carlos Monzon
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
0.


I will of course inform you of the precise and correct MW order in the near future because it's apparent I've made an arse of it right from the outset.

I've fixed your post bud.
You started so well in the LHWs as well

davie wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:1. Carlos Monzon
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
0.


I will of course inform you of the precise and correct MW order in the near future because it's apparent I've made an arse of it right from the outset.

I've fixed your post bud.
You started so well in the LHWs as well

Nonsense, Monzon was the most capable MW, you are over emotional, and unable to calm your fanboy excitement in order to deliver a rational observation. However.....everyone gets to play.
So not to worrry, your vote will count every bit as much as a fully knowledgeable and informed voter. Such as myself.

Sugar Ray Robinson
Harry Greb
Mickey Walker
Stanley Ketchel
Tiger Flowers
Carlos Monzon
Tony Zale
Marvin Hagler
Marcel Cerdan
James Toney

BoxBuzz wrote:1. Carlos Monzon
2. Harry Greb
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Roy Jones Jr
5. Mickey Walker
6. Dick Tiger
7. Mike Gibbons
8. James Toney
9. Bernard Hopkins
0. Mike McCallum


Here is the state of the art, precisely accurate, and 100% certified objective and flawless list. Error free, and worthy of worldwide critical acclaim.
Even to think of varying it in the least, is to show your blatant ignorance of the irrefutable facts of the matter. Straight from the Akashik record
manifest in deeply etched, lightening stricken, stone tablets. Then carried painstakingly down from Mt Sinai on the backs of holy yaks, for YOU the little guy,....
to gaze upon. But be abbreviated with your staring, as you may find yourself blinded by the brilliance of it's unyielding truth and unarguable valorization of the worthy.

Jones?

BoxBuzz wrote:

davie wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:1. Carlos Monzon
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
0.


I will of course inform you of the precise and correct MW order in the near future because it's apparent I've made an arse of it right from the outset.

I've fixed your post bud.
You started so well in the LHWs as well

Nonsense, Monzon was the most capable MW, you are over emotional, and unable to calm your fanboy excitement in order to deliver a rational observation. However.....everyone gets to play.
So not to worrry, your vote will count every bit as much as a fully knowledgeable and informed voter. Such as myself.

It's odd, I always have the same top 4 and the order changes. But I don't think I've ever had Monzon no 1.
He always makes the top 4 but of the long reigning career middleweights I always have him behind my favourite Marv.
Fanboy?
Aye, probably!

1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Ray Robinson
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Bob Fitzsimmon
7. Bernard Hopkins
8. Dick Tiger
9. Jake LaMotta
10. Marcel Cerdan

Give up wrote:Sugar Ray Robinson
Harry Greb
Mickey Walker
Stanley Ketchel
Tiger Flowers
Carlos Monzon
Tony Zale
Marvin Hagler
Marcel Cerdan
James Toney

Don't think I've ever seen Monzon and Hagler so low on a MW list, 6th and 8th respectively? Interesting!

I respect everyone's choice, although I must admit that I do not know how to Jones was high on the list in MW. Again, a lot of people with different opinions.

1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Sam Langford
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Mickey Walker
9. Charley Burley
10. Bernard Hopkins

Hard list to nail down. How can Burley only be #9? Where is Griffith, Tiger, LaMotta, RJJ etc etc?

Decided to include Langford, perhaps contentiously. Of course, he fought from 140 to 206lbs (so far as the records tell us) but it does look to me that between May 1905 and some time late in 1911 he was (with a few exceptions later on) consistently weighing-in between 154 and 170lbs. His fights before and after that don't count at all (as middleweight-relevant) but given that weight classes were a little less set in stone at the time I'm counting him a pretty much a middleweight for that whole period, even if his opponents often weren't (many bigger, a few smaller). Dangerous assumption maybe, but it doesn't seem likely to me that his weights between the recorded fights would fluctuate all that much given that he was fighting so regularly.

Likewise Fitz rarely strayed from that 154-170 leeway window that I'm giving to turn of the century guys (and less so to those who fought in the 1920s and later). Though he won the title so I figured he'd be less problematic anyway.

Had I been a little stricter with Langford I'd have maybe slotted Emile Griffith behind BHop.

BoxBuzz wrote:1. Carlos Monzon
2. Harry Greb
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Roy Jones Jr
5. Mickey Walker
6. Dick Tiger
7. Mike Gibbons
8. James Toney
9. Bernard Hopkins
0. Mike McCallum


Here is the state of the art, precisely accurate, and 100% certified objective and flawless list. Error free, and worthy of worldwide critical acclaim.
Even to think of varying it in the least, is to show your blatant ignorance of the irrefutable facts of the matter. Straight from the Akashik record
manifest in deeply etched, lightening stricken, stone tablets. Then carried painstakingly down from Mt Sinai on the backs of holy yaks, for YOU the little guy,....
to gaze upon. But be abbreviated with your staring, as you may find yourself blinded by the brilliance of it's unyielding truth and unarguable valorization of the worthy.

Interesting. But, the great Sugar Ray Robinson is not on the list?

I will try mine:
1. Carlos Monzon
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Marvelous Marvin Hagler
4. Harry Greb
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Bernard Hopkins
7. Mickey Walker
8. Dick Tiger
9. Jake LaMotta
10. Bob Fitzsimmons

Top 12 Middleweights

Gennady Golovkin… 18-0 in Middleweight Title Fights with 18 KO wins
Carlos Monzon… 15-0 in Middleweight Title Fights
Bernard Hopkins… 20-3 in Middleweight Title Fights – also won Light Heavyweight Title
James Toney... also won Super Middleweight and Cruiserweight titles
Roy Jones... also won Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight titles
Bob Fitzsimmons... also won Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight titles
Marvin Hagler... 13-1-1 in Middleweight in Title Fights
Stanley Ketchel... known for winning 3 of 4 savage fights with arch rival Billy Papke
Harry Greb... only man to beat Gene Tunney
Mike Gibbons... beat Jack Dillon, Harry Greb, and Ted Kid Lewis at his best
Mickey Walker... Welterweight and Middleweight Champion. Also fought and beat many Light Heavyweights and Heavyweights
Ray Robinson... also tried to win the Light Heavyweight Title once

I didn't rank long time Middleweight Champion Tommy Ryan, but a lot of early historians ranked him one of the greatest boxers and coaches of all time. But there are no available fights of his on film and just 1 clip of him sparring and skipping rope.

1-Sugar Ray Robinson
2-Greb
3-Hagler
4-Monzon
5-Micky Walker
6-Hopkins
7-Ketchel
8-La Motta
9-Cerdan
10-Fullmer

Kalan wrote:Top 12 Middleweights

Gennady Golovkin… 18-0 in Middleweight Title Fights with 18 KO wins
Carlos Monzon… 15-0 in Middleweight Title Fights
Bernard Hopkins… 20-3 in Middleweight Title Fights – also won Light Heavyweight Title
James Toney... also won Super Middleweight and Cruiserweight titles
Roy Jones... also won Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight titles
Bob Fitzsimmons... also won Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight titles
Marvin Hagler... 13-1-1 in Middleweight in Title Fights
Stanley Ketchel... known for winning 3 of 4 savage fights with arch rival Billy Papke
Harry Greb... only man to beat Gene Tunney
Mike Gibbons... beat Jack Dillon, Harry Greb, and Ted Kid Lewis at his best
Mickey Walker... Welterweight and Middleweight Champion. Also fought and beat many Light Heavyweights and Heavyweights
Ray Robinson... also tried to win the Light Heavyweight Title once

I didn't rank long time Middleweight Champion Tommy Ryan, but a lot of early historians ranked him one of the greatest boxers and coaches of all time. But there are no available fights of his on film and just 1 clip of him sparring and skipping rope.

Did you read the rules section of the opening post where he stated, in bold:

Top 10 Middleweights of all time

No?

This really does not make sense to take into account with regard to the rules.
Golovkin

I wanted to fit Robinson in there so I added a couple... because a lot of people think he should be rated somewhere... You still have my Top-10

Keko wrote:This really does not make sense to take into account with regard to the rules.
Golovkin

GGG is clearly the World's top Middleweight... Robinson got beaten in his 1st Middleweight Title Defense and pretty regular after that -- so it wasn't clear he was the best... SRR was 3-3 in MIddleweight Title Defenses with 2 KO wins... Golovkin is 17-0 in Middleweight Title Defenses with 17 KO wins.

Kalan wrote:

Keko wrote:This really does not make sense to take into account with regard to the rules.
Golovkin

GGG is clearly the World's top Middleweight... Robinson got beaten in his 1st Middleweight Title Defense and pretty regular after that -- so it wasn't clear he was the best... SRR was 3-3 in MIddleweight Title Defenses with 2 KO wins... Golovkin is 17-0 in Middleweight Title Defenses with 17 KO wins.

GGG does not have great victories, but SRR(have 15 fights for mw titles with top competition ) them tremendously. No serious it does not take into top 10.
We know that both


Edit
Your choice although I do not know whether this order and 12 of them have, however, probably does not even take into account.

HyacinthusTurnipseed wrote:1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Sam Langford
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Mickey Walker
9. Charley Burley
10. Bernard Hopkins

Hard list to nail down. How can Burley only be #9? Where is Griffith, Tiger, LaMotta, RJJ etc etc?

Decided to include Langford, perhaps contentiously. Of course, he fought from 140 to 206lbs (so far as the records tell us) but it does look to me that between May 1905 and some time late in 1911 he was (with a few exceptions later on) consistently weighing-in between 154 and 170lbs. His fights before and after that don't count at all (as middleweight-relevant) but given that weight classes were a little less set in stone at the time I'm counting him a pretty much a middleweight for that whole period, even if his opponents often weren't (many bigger, a few smaller). Dangerous assumption maybe, but it doesn't seem likely to me that his weights between the recorded fights would fluctuate all that much given that he was fighting so regularly.

Likewise Fitz rarely strayed from that 154-170 leeway window that I'm giving to turn of the century guys (and less so to those who fought in the 1920s and later). Though he won the title so I figured he'd be less problematic anyway.

Had I been a little stricter with Langford I'd have maybe slotted Emile Griffith behind BHop.

I haven't listed Langford and Fitzsimmons into any of my HW, LHW or MW lists and it's breaking my heart. Like so many division skipping legends, it's so hard to place them conclusively on their achievements at certain weights, despite the fact they rank far higher overall, p4p, against many of the names that made the cut.
Yet I quite happily throw SRR in at MW and will put him undisputed top of the WW list next month. Hypocrisy on my part I guess