BoxRec

Can anyone offer any information about Vince Foster and/or his manager Deacon Jack Hurley... I have some basic info on Foster from LIFE magazine, but little about Hurley who seemed to be quite the quotable character... I am researching for a pet project for my grandpa who grew up and boxed in Omaha during the 40's. Thanks.

you will find a great deal of information on both people at the newspaperarchive.com

Thanks Robert. There are a lot of articles there on both of them. All the meat and potatoes facts I'm looking for... if anyone out there has any gravy... old stories from Omaha. Anything about the Black Orchid Club or the old Nebraska gym scene... I suppose a lot of the details surrounding these guys are slipping away with the years. Thanks again, Robert, good turn.

my pleasure. They are adding large amounts of new material each month so its worth checking make each month to find any updates. I have an ongoing subscription which saves a lot of money.

The Black Orchid club rings a bell, can you tell me a bit more please.

The Black Orchid was an after hours place in Omaha, Nebraska owned by Leo Cubic. Leo also owned a place called The Flamingo. The Orchid was on 24th and Cummings Street and a cop named John Steiner ran and bounced it in those days. It was a favorite hang out of many of the local fighters. There was another place, The Cave, located under the Hill Hotel downtown that was also popular. Both, possibly needless to say, were tough places.... boxers and street punks and reportedly a few rich young woman...
Another name i'll toss out there was a trainer named Tuck Shadden... supposedly well known, along with another named Hawkins. These two were the best in Omaha in those days. Shadden trained and managed Vince Foster before Jack Hurley got a hold of him (I think Jack must have seen him knock out Fontana in the 1st in Chicago, the same night Sam Baroudi died from injuries sustained versus Ezzard Charles) .
Another elusive lead I have, maybe someone knows, is a boxer went by the name "Boardwalk Billy Smith" whose real name might have been Larry Watson. My grandfather vows this guy had a great career, changing his name and going to California, but I can't locate any records that support it.

Oh, and great thread on Sam...

Hurley came out of Fargo with Billy Petrolle during the early 20's. During the late 30's and 40's he promoted at the Coliseum in Chicago. Around 1947 or 1948 he began managing Harry "Kid" Matthews and switched his operations to Seattle. He was based out of Seattle until his death in 1972.

John Ochs, a boxing historian out of Seattle, has been doing extensive research on Hurley, following him in the Upper Midwest and through his days in Chicago. I believe, that Hurley wrote a boxing column during the 30's and 40's, that was carried in various cities like Duluth, Fargo, Bismarck, etc.

Has John Ochs published? Or is there any of his research available? It must be some pretty good stuff judging by a couple of quotes I've managed to find, for example: "Please don't call me honest, you'll ruin me." or "Putting an ex-fighter in the business world is like putting silk stockings on a pig." He was also outspokenly opposed to televised bouts, believing that free broadcasting would ruin boxing. He also, reportedly, once offered Wilt Chamberlain a million dollars for a heavyweight bout. Wilt said, "I've never boxed." "So what?" Snapped Hurley, "You stick out that left, who's gonna get near you? I'll teach you the rest."

Larry Watson was a journeyman heavyweight from Omaha who fought in the early 1950's around the Chicago area. I saw him get beat by Mike Buha, a local heavyweight, on the undercard of the Satterfield-Gomez brawl.

"Broadwalk" Billy Smith or "Oakland" Billy Smith, as he was known after moving to California, was a top lightheavyweight contender for a number of years. Our BoxRec friend, Jaclem, has written about Smith on a number of threads and should be a good source for information.

The only time I ever saw Vince Foster was when he stopped Lou Fontana at the Chicago Stadium in the first round.

The general impression of Foster at the time was that he was a pretty wild fellow both in and outside the ring.

I believe Chuck Foster, who also fought around Chicago, was a brother of Vince. I can't prove it. It is just something that I once heard.

Thanks Simonpure. I'll check out the old threads for more on Boardwalk Billy. I'm so glad to have heard from someone who saw Vince Foster fight, even if it only lasted one round. Yes, it seems he had a pretty strange reputation... the badboy who turned to God. He found God through the Moody Memorial Church there in Chicago. I don't know how rare it was, but he used to give his opponents Bibles and quote passages to them before/after fights. He turned into a real crusader then was charged with forcible rape... the case was dropped due to lack of evidence.
I have also heard that Chuck Foster was his brother... not the best fighter. And there was another supposed relation Vince Foster who fought in the 1980's, also not the best record.
Being from Chicago, do you recall Jack Hurley?

Jack Hurley was trying to bust Boone Kirkman into a hwgt contender position, if it wasn't for a OG gold medal prospect by the name of George Foreman. I don't know if Hurley ever tried again with another prospect.
Like Simonpure says, Larry Watson and Oakland Boardwalk Smith were two different fighters. Watson's biggest payday was a ko loss to Sonny Liston. Smith's days of glory was a string of losses to Archie Moore.
Vince Foster was a good-looking lightweight prospect, according to / looped by The Ring magazine, from page to page, for a while. The guy who ruined his plans to make it to the top was Don Lee, a journeyman who made his living in Europe. And, of course, Charley Fusari.

I spent a while looking into Foster's record. He fought Don Lee three times, each time doing progressively worse (D,L-PTS,KOinthe10thof10) but wasn't Don Lee a middleweight while Foster a welter? Don Lee out weighed him by ten pounds and fought primarily middleweights, what was with the match up you think? I'm not much at speculation, especially concerning boxing in the 40's, but I sort of imagined beating Don Lee would have helped him, but losing to him, while blemishing his near perfect record kind of just showed him fighting above his class... which might only help his reputation as a hard hitter... ?? Don Lee ended up fighting Ray Robinson for a middleweight title six months after knocking Foster....
Oh, and what do you mean by "looped" by Ring Magazine? Foster was a kind of prettyboy playboy, yeah? Like Kid Gavalin? Good press image... Plus having a publicity hound like Hurley behind him, do you think he was made into more than he was/would of been? More so than other boxers? Pellone, only once before had ever been knocked out, said "he had never been hit so hard" as when Foster knocked him out.

Boone Kirkman... quite a record. Yeah, he seemed to have been stopped cold in his tracks with George Foreman. His first loss due to a cut over his eye, he turned right around and beat Doug Jones a month later, but after Foreman he didn't fight for two years. Although, he fought Foreman in November 1970 and Jack Hurley died November 1972... I don't know if Jack was sick first or if that had a large affect on his boxer, Kirkman, but his return to the ring was in January of 1973 with his new manager, Sal Algieri. Thanks for more info...

In the RRB's of the late 1940's, Jack Hurley was listed as promoter for the Chicago Stadium and living at the Lincoln Hotel.

By 1951, he was listed as a boxing manager and a resident of the Olympia Hotel in Seattle.

It was sometime during these years that James D. Norris and his International Boxing Club took control of the Stadium with Billy Brown as matchmaker. Perhaps there was no room for Jack Hurley in the new setup.

I don't know anything else about Hurley...just always associated him with Harry "Kid" Matthews.

Did you know that WMBI was one of the earliest Chicago radio stations and was the voice of the Moody Bible Institute?

No. Do you know when WMBI went on the air? I wonder if I can search that one out... I don't imagine they are still broadcasting.

Robert Snell was gracious enough to email a newspaper archive from November 1972 by Jim Murray, LA Times. Its a well written farewell to Jack Hurley.
Here's some gems...
Murray writes, "The man-eating tiger may make a comeback. They may be able to save the Pacific grey whales. But when they put Jack Hurley in a box, they can mark an era closed."
"There were three things Jack Hurley hated in life : 1)women, 2)daylight, and 3)amatuers."
"They called him The Deacon because he could deliver sermons on the evils of marriage, of leading with your right, and of working for nothing."
"The Deacon was in his 80's and a young woman showed up at his door one night and gasped in dismay when an indignant Hurley in nightcap and longjohns opened it. 'Oh, I'm sorry, I've got the wrong room!' she said. Hurley shook his head, 'No, the wrong year,' he told her."
"The late Doc Greene used to tell of the time a house dick in a Chicago hotel came up to Hurley and said, 'A drunk came in a while ago and I helped him to his room and prowled him. And he had $400 and I took it.' Hurley shook his head. 'That's amatuer,' he said, 'When the guy wakes up and his dough is gone, he'll know he's been robbed and he'll scream. Go back and put $200 back, when he wakes up he'll say "Boy, was I loaded! I blew the 200." And he'll only hope his wife doesn't find out about it.'"

Thought anyone checking this thread might enjoy a bit of the fruits you all have helped dredge up.

Adding to the notes on "Broadway" Billy Smith aka "Oakland" Billy Smith aka... "Disappearing" Billy Smith. Thanks again to RobertSnell. As a side note: He caught the nickname "Disappearing" after his third bout with Moore. Following some great fighting leading into the eighth round, Smith dropped his hands to hear some shouting from his seconds... Moore ceased the opportunity and hit Smith with a devasting haymaker right. "Billy got up at nine and went on his bicycle. Archie caught up with him, however, and draped him over the ropes with a right. Then, to the amazement of the crowd, Billy just parted the ropes, climbed through and fled to his dressing room." Asked about the incident later, Smith said he just got disgusted.... I guess [Moore] was giving me too much trouble.

I am thouroughly enjoying the old stories.... Still curious about Vince Foster... his bad reputation and such...

KnowThePast wrote:Thanks Simonpure. I'll check out the old threads for more on Boardwalk Billy. I'm so glad to have heard from someone who saw Vince Foster fight, even if it only lasted one round. Yes, it seems he had a pretty strange reputation... the badboy who turned to God. He found God through the Moody Memorial Church there in Chicago. I don't know how rare it was, but he used to give his opponents Bibles and quote passages to them before/after fights. He turned into a real crusader then was charged with forcible rape... the case was dropped due to lack of evidence.
I have also heard that Chuck Foster was his brother... not the best fighter. And there was another supposed relation Vince Foster who fought in the 1980's, also not the best record.
Being from Chicago, do you recall Jack Hurley?

Having read some of the articles on Hurley he may well have been the force behind the giving out of the bible. I am not aware of anyone else doing this.

tegenm wrote:Hurley came out of Fargo with Billy Petrolle during the early 20's. During the late 30's and 40's he promoted at the Coliseum in Chicago. Around 1947 or 1948 he began managing Harry "Kid" Matthews and switched his operations to Seattle. He was based out of Seattle until his death in 1972.

John Ochs, a boxing historian out of Seattle, has been doing extensive research on Hurley, following him in the Upper Midwest and through his days in Chicago. I believe, that Hurley wrote a boxing column during the 30's and 40's, that was carried in various cities like Duluth, Fargo, Bismarck, etc.

i have tried to find the column articles you refer to but have drawn a totol blank on the search. I hope we can find some as he was not shy about giving his opinion !!!!

I understand from reports that he was involved with boxing for some 50 ys and wonder if their is anybody else who comes near to this?

His cohort in Seattle, George Chemeres who died in 2002, was around for ever. He was boxing as a pro in the Grays Harbor area in 1933 and was still training fighters until 2000.

Where else but "Boxers of the Past" could you learn this? WMBI is indeed still on the air in Chicago and "Celebrating 78-years of Music and Ministry" on 1110 AM and 90.1 FM.

Could this have been Jack Hurley's favorite radio station?

I'm not so sure old Hurley was such a religious man... In an article published soon after Vince Foster fought Tony Pellone in Jan '49 (Boxing: Fighter with a Bible) says, "Although Jack Hurley's spare tallness, somber face and rimless spectacles give him the look of a preacher, he has spent the last 32 years getting men to knock one another's heads off. His latest prize fighter, russett-haired Vince Foster, looks like a fighter but spends a lot of time trying to give Hurley religion.
"Early last week Manager Hurley sounded almost unnerved about it. 'When we are up in our hotel,' he reported, 'Foster brings his Bible over to me and shows me underlined passages. When he returns from a walk, he brings four or five pamphlets from some Bible mission and tells me to read them carefully. I have to read them, too; he always asks me questions later.'"

How do I find out more on this John Ochs fellow?

Question: Jim Norris? Chicago. Jack Hurley made matches for him for seven years. Above is mentioned that by Tegenm and backed up by an article I have... when the IBC took over the Coliseum, Jack moved to Seattle. Jack is quoted saying, "Norris ruined the fight game in this country." Does anyone know why?

I believe John Ochs intends to publish something before the 50th anniversary of the Patterson-Rademacher title fight held in Seattle, which Hurley promoted. That would be 2007.

Last time I spoke with him, he was going through Chicago papers in the early 40's looking for Hurley info. He told me, he was having a hard time finding a Chicago paper that had what he was looking for, however. He has already followed him in his early day's with Petrolle. As far as Seattle, John has the most extensive collection of Seattle boxing info of anybody.

That's not very promising for me.... My main interest is still Vince Foster, whom my grandfather knew in Omaha and there is scant information on him. Since its rather clear that there would not have been much of anything to Vince Foster without Jack Hurley, the lack of information on Jack during the 40's is disheartening....

knowthe past....a fairly recent biography of rocky marciano has a few stories about jack hurley...ROCKY MARCIANO....THE ROCK OF HIS TIMES...by RUSSELL SULLIVAN....university of illinois press. good book in general.

you also asked about Jim Norris and the IBC...and in this same book is an excellent condensation of him and relationship to the ibc and "Mister Gray Carbo . gives a good overview.

re:vince foster. he was supposed to be part indian, and a ring magazine stringer back in those sensitive days wrote "note to vince foster...indians should stay away from firewater." indicating he chose to lift a glass or two form time to time. alas, he may have done so while he was driving.

ring magazine went all out for him on the basis of his kayo over tony pellone..which was typical of the provincialism of new york when it came to boxers. it was as if he had never fought anywhere else. then, after their buildup the headline for the fusari match was "fusari bursts the vince foster bubble"...a bubble which was in part blown up by ring magazine itself.

re:oakland billy smith.....when i get some time to cogitate i'll see if i can add anything to what i've written here already. a most fascinating fellow.