BoxRec

If Muhammad Ali was called up to fight in Vietnam and refused, what about the other boxers around that time? Why didn't Foreman, Frazier etc get their careers interrupted by war/prison/ban?

I assume it was an age thing, Foreman and Frazier were younger. Mac Foster was born in 1942 the same as Ali and I'm sure he was in the forces.

surfthehurf wrote:If Muhammad Ali was called up to fight in Vietnam and refused, what about the other boxers around that time? Why didn't Foreman, Frazier etc get their careers interrupted by war/prison/ban?

I'd never thought of that.

Frazier was only 2 years younger, so he could have been called.

Foreman is seven years younger than Ali, so he might have just missed the cut, so to speak.

Syntax Error wrote:

surfthehurf wrote:If Muhammad Ali was called up to fight in Vietnam and refused, what about the other boxers around that time? Why didn't Foreman, Frazier etc get their careers interrupted by war/prison/ban?

I'd never thought of that.

Frazier was only 2 years younger, so he could have been called.

Foreman is seven years younger than Ali, so he might have just missed the cut, so to speak.

Googling it there was a 'lottery' element to how people were called up, depending on their date of birth, so some had a higher chance of being called up than others.

Y'know, I never really thought of this either. Perhaps Frazier was deferred being a family man with a couple of kids, but Foreman I don't know about. He was 19 at the time of the '68 Olympics and his Olympic team-mate Armando Muniz had already been drafted and represented the Army in the box-offs. Don't know how George got around that one. I think his first child was born around '73 so doubt there was any kind of family deferment. Good question.

surfthehurf wrote:If Muhammad Ali was called up to fight in Vietnam and refused, what about the other boxers around that time? Why didn't Foreman, Frazier etc get their careers interrupted by war/prison/ban?

The Viet Nam War was started for the benefit of military contractors -- there was no reason for us to get involved with a civil conflict in a 3rd world country where we had ZERO interests, except to benefit our defense industry. 58,000 Americans were killed and about 200,000 injured... I was in the USMC when it broke out and I was a conscientious objector. Ali was a hero to those of us who were dead against that stupid war. He said "I ain't got nothing against those Viet Cong" He got that exactly right!!

Kalan wrote:

surfthehurf wrote:If Muhammad Ali was called up to fight in Vietnam and refused, what about the other boxers around that time? Why didn't Foreman, Frazier etc get their careers interrupted by war/prison/ban?

The Viet Nam War was started for the benefit of military contractors -- there was no reason for us to get involved with a civil conflict in a 3rd world country where we had ZERO interests, except to benefit our defense industry. 58,000 Americans were killed and about 200,000 injured... I was in the USMC when it broke out and I was a conscientious objector. Ali was a hero to those of us who were dead against that stupid war. He said "I ain't got nothing against those Viet Cong" He got that exactly right!!

So you are in your early to mid 70s? What happened to you as a conscientious objector, did they jail you?

Ali was caught up in the draft when his status was changed to 1A in accordance with Project 100,000 - Frazier was exempt because he was married with family - the lottery did not become an issue until 1970 and was irrelevant to Ali and Frazier

Kalan wrote:

surfthehurf wrote:If Muhammad Ali was called up to fight in Vietnam and refused, what about the other boxers around that time? Why didn't Foreman, Frazier etc get their careers interrupted by war/prison/ban?

The Viet Nam War was started for the benefit of military contractors -- there was no reason for us to get involved with a civil conflict in a 3rd world country where we had ZERO interests, except to benefit our defense industry. 58,000 Americans were killed and about 200,000 injured... I was in the USMC when it broke out and I was a conscientious objector. Ali was a hero to those of us who were dead against that stupid war. He said "I ain't got nothing against those Viet Cong" He got that exactly right!!

Kalan, this must be the one & only time you've ever given Muhammad Ali credit for anything.

They were trying to make an example of Ali; which is why his draft status was suddenly changed. A few years ago we had a thread going about star athletes in Vietnam. We could not not come up with hardly anyone.

Yes... I knew many people who got military deferments of various kinds who were perfectly able bodied... John Kerry fought in the war and killed people, before realizing it was wrong... I talked to several guys who killed people in that war and hated themselves.. That's when you realize what you're doing.. when you're gunning down a human being who you have nothing against in the world -- for what??? Viet Nam can't attack us.

A close friend of mine told me, "I'm more sorry about fighting in Viet Nam than any other thing I've ever done in my life.. If we'd all refused to go there'd have been no war and we wouldn't have lost Joe, Sparks, and Tim." ... Another friend was shot through the knee and is lame.. When their husbands were killed wives would cry their eyes out and say, "I can't understand it." ... I still can't believe most guys agreed to go over there. They were all young of course.

I don't know the rights or wrongs of the ,Vietnam War but I do know the Ali call up situation.
He was called to sit the IQ test and failed. This is the man who many later had all the 'wise' words and became universally revered due to mostly to his eloquence with words.
Because many men deliberately failed the test he had to sit it again under supervision and his score improved but still below the standard.
Some months later the U.S. government lowered the pass rate, and Ali/clay was being interviewed when a journalist told him what had happened. His Black Muslim 'friends' went berserk and Ali/Clay was stunned.
Nobody can tell me Ali couldn't have passed the test if he'd wanted. A 6 year old could have scraped through.
My point is that while the world heavyweight champion can refuse to serve his country ( and been used primarily to motivate and entertain the troops like JOE Louis) other families lost their sons, brothers and fathers. And while we're on the subject, let's talk about his ' white Devils' comments inspired by his racist thugs who he befriended.
For me, as a human being,he fell far short of the standards of Floyd Patterson who made friends wherever he went, black and white, due to his sheer humility and dignity.

It was a sham. How many other sports stars were drafted to go to Vietnam?
It's not like they were going to have him see combat.
Yes he could have went over and boxed some exhibitions. That would have been the easy way out. He opposed the war on moral grounds. He refused to go, not knowing if he would ever fight again. He lost a lot of money and prime years of his career.

Floyd Patterson was a great person too.

dalcumly wrote:I don't know the rights or wrongs of the ,Vietnam War but I do know the Ali call up situation.
He was called to sit the IQ test and failed. This is the man who many later had all the 'wise' words and became universally revered due to mostly to his eloquence with words.
Because many men deliberately failed the test he had to sit it again under supervision and his score improved but still below the standard.
Some months later the U.S. government lowered the pass rate, and Ali/clay was being interviewed when a journalist told him what had happened. His Black Muslim 'friends' went berserk and Ali/Clay was stunned.
Nobody can tell me Ali couldn't have passed the test if he'd wanted. A 6 year old could have scraped through.
My point is that while the world heavyweight champion can refuse to serve his country ( and been used primarily to motivate and entertain the troops like JOE Louis) other families lost their sons, brothers and fathers. And while we're on the subject, let's talk about his ' white Devils' comments inspired by his racist thugs who he befriended.
For me, as a human being,he fell far short of the standards of Floyd Patterson who made friends wherever he went, black and white, due to his sheer humility and dignity.

So do black people have to be humble around whites for you to accept them?

Kalan wrote:

surfthehurf wrote:If Muhammad Ali was called up to fight in Vietnam and refused, what about the other boxers around that time? Why didn't Foreman, Frazier etc get their careers interrupted by war/prison/ban?

The Viet Nam War was started for the benefit of military contractors -- there was no reason for us to get involved with a civil conflict in a 3rd world country where we had ZERO interests, except to benefit our defense industry. 58,000 Americans were killed and about 200,000 injured... I was in the USMC when it broke out and I was a conscientious objector. Ali was a hero to those of us who were dead against that stupid war. He said "I ain't got nothing against those Viet Cong" He got that exactly right!!

You never fail to surprise me. But, well done.

dalcumly wrote:I don't know the rights or wrongs of the ,Vietnam War but I do know the Ali call up situation.
He was called to sit the IQ test and failed. This is the man who many later had all the 'wise' words and became universally revered due to mostly to his eloquence with words.
Because many men deliberately failed the test he had to sit it again under supervision and his score improved but still below the standard.
Some months later the U.S. government lowered the pass rate, and Ali/clay was being interviewed when a journalist told him what had happened. His Black Muslim 'friends' went berserk and Ali/Clay was stunned.
Nobody can tell me Ali couldn't have passed the test if he'd wanted. A 6 year old could have scraped through.
My point is that while the world heavyweight champion can refuse to serve his country ( and been used primarily to motivate and entertain the troops like JOE Louis) other families lost their sons, brothers and fathers. And while we're on the subject, let's talk about his ' white Devils' comments inspired by his racist thugs who he befriended.
For me, as a human being,he fell far short of the standards of Floyd Patterson who made friends wherever he went, black and white, due to his sheer humility and dignity.

The test was more a measure of your basic education than your IQ.. A lot of black kids were shoved through inferior schools and graduated if they could talk and read at 3rd grade level. You need basic competence in reading and math to be a soldier on the battlefield and Ali didn't have it... Ali failing the test angered some southern senators. They arbitrarily had the test requirements lowered to include Ali's score so he'd be eligible for the armed services. That was one of the more racist, underhanded, and despicable things I've ever heard about.

As far as a world heavyweight champion refusing to serve his country??? Everybody has the same right when their country is dead wrong... The Supreme Court ruled that Ali had a constitutional right to refuse the draft -- in a unanimous verdict... The government never took his Boxing license away... That was Boxing.

I acknowledge the sentiments in the above arguments and defend the rights of people to express their opinions. But no one on here has yet to address Ali's relationship with the outrageously racist Black Muslims and the fact that THEY fleeced millions off of Ali. I still say that Ali was a 'draft dodger' and his sole reason for deliberately failing the Test was to avoid joining the military because he believed it would interfere in his money earning boxing career. However, his plan backfired when he was stripped of his titles and almost every State ( north and south) refused to allow him to fight.
Patterson, Frazier, Moore , Foreman on the whole were better people than Ali, in fact, in terms of doing more for black people in America, Jack Johnson was far braver.

dalcumly wrote:I acknowledge the sentiments in the above arguments and defend the rights of people to express their opinions. But no one on here has yet to address Ali's relationship with the outrageously racist Black Muslims and the fact that THEY fleeced millions off of Ali. I still say that Ali was a 'draft dodger' and his sole reason for deliberately failing the Test was to avoid joining the military because he believed it would interfere in his money earning boxing career. However, his plan backfired when he was stripped of his titles and almost every State ( north and south) refused to allow him to fight.
Patterson, Frazier, Moore , Foreman on the whole were better people than Ali, in fact, in terms of doing more for black people in America, Jack Johnson was far braver.

Ali grew up in a society that was fundamentally, outrageously and institutionally racist against black people. It wasn't until 1968, when he would have been in his mid 20s, that the USA brought in legislation making racist discrimination illegal. In the South white people could murder blacks and get away with it. This isn't an exaggeration.

And you're criticising the black Muslims for being racist against whites? Black people in Ali's position ought to have been more racist against white people. White people had been institutionally screwing them over for centuries.

gp.

Some good points - but you do admit the Black Muslims were racist ? and that they fleeced Ali for millions ? Yes or no.

dalcumly wrote:I acknowledge the sentiments in the above arguments and defend the rights of people to express their opinions. But no one on here has yet to address Ali's relationship with the outrageously racist Black Muslims and the fact that THEY fleeced millions off of Ali. I still say that Ali was a 'draft dodger' and his sole reason for deliberately failing the Test was to avoid joining the military because he believed it would interfere in his money earning boxing career. However, his plan backfired when he was stripped of his titles and almost every State ( north and south) refused to allow him to fight.
Patterson, Frazier, Moore , Foreman on the whole were better people than Ali, in fact, in terms of doing more for black people in America, Jack Johnson was far braver.

That is simply not true. He knew well before he refused the induction that he was going to have his title stripped and not be able to fight.
He gave up his title, his prime, and a lot of money for something that he believed in.

Ambling Alp

Boy are you naive !

dalcumly wrote:gp.

Some good points - but you do admit the Black Muslims were racist ? and that they fleeced Ali for millions ? Yes or no.

They may have fleeced Ali, as far as I know. I don't have the full details.

Were they racist? Before I answer that, answer this. If a slave in 1800s Carolina who was property of a white man and being whipped simply because of his colour hated white people, was he being racist?

Was it being racist to despise white society when they were denying black people voting rights and burning them on crosses?

Remember that most of the people who made up the Black Muslim movement had grown up in a world where what rights they had were routinely, and constantly abused by white society on account of their colour. If they hated whites it's not because they were white, but because they were abusing them.

dalcumly wrote:Ambling Alp

Boy are you naive !

No it's not being naive; it's knowing what happened. Ali absolutely know he would lose his title and not be allowed to fight if he refused to be inducted. He was told that it would happen. Everyone at the time knew that it would happen.

. . . and we now know that Ali was approached by the military and it was made clear to him that he would be "Joe Louis-ed' - all that talk about Ali being a coward was nonsense/irrelevant - Ali understood he was going to be used to recruit young African-American, and to justify an unpopular war to the Black community. - He gave up much for his principles - it would have been much easier to play along, do two years, and probably spend most of it fighting exhibitions and doing stand up with Bob Hope. - Never liked him as fighter, rooted against him in very fight he ever had - but I had nothing but admiration for him as a man.

gp. wrote:

dalcumly wrote:gp.

Some good points - but you do admit the Black Muslims were racist ? and that they fleeced Ali for millions ? Yes or no.

They may have fleeced Ali, as far as I know. I don't have the full details.

Were they racist? Before I answer that, answer this. If a slave in 1800s Carolina who was property of a white man and being whipped simply because of his colour hated white people, was he being racist?

Was it being racist to despise white society when they were denying black people voting rights and burning them on crosses?

Remember that most of the people who made up the Black Muslim movement had grown up in a world where what rights they had were routinely, and constantly abused by white society on account of their colour. If they hated whites it's not because they were white, but because they were abusing them.

That's a little bit like asking if Native Americans were racist against white people -- after white soldiers shot them and ran them off their homelands... In fact, the first white settlers who came over were welcomed by the Indians, who shared their farming knowledge and food with them. It wasn't until the white settlers wanted prime Indian homelands and started driving them off their lands that the sht hit the fan. They hated each other deeply eventually.