BoxRec

what actually is it?

"weak chin" doesn't cut it for me. he
got caught by pulev and didn't go down.
he managed to get his feet back against
peter, who hit him flush for a whole round.

there are chinny boxers, wlad doesn't
really seem to be one of them to me.

so what is it then? my assessment is that
he loses composure to easily when being
hit. to me he all of a sudden just stands
there totally disorganised and thus inviting
further assault.

stewart's answer was stopping the invasion
by hugging and buying time to regain stance.
it has been working for many years. question
is if there had been another option.

there are these boxers, who punish you for
hurting them. timothy bradley against ruslan
provodnikov comes to mind. which is very
difficult for the opponent to deal with. wlad
didn't seem to have that extra gear and
toughness. though i must say that what he
showed against kubrat pulev did seem to
show some of that "metal".

IMHO his only chance against joshua is to
find this place within himself, because all
the other tactics won't work this time at
this location against this opponent.

No head movement, poor anticipation. Luckily not many fighters in his era had the guts or talent to try and hit him.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:No head movement, poor anticipation. Luckily not many fighters in his era had the guts or talent to try and hit him.

you think there had been other routes
he could have gone aside of grabbing?
head movement you can train. not sure
about anticipation, maybe boxing middle
weights?

if it had indeed been chin, the option
emanuel took was probably the only one.

I always tought is biggest problem was that he has no Stamina. He boxes at a slow pace and if he gets tag is level of energy drop dramatically. Stewart manage to make him do the type of fight that suits him the best.

The reason Wlad lost dominantly to Fury is because boxers will lose to taller, rangier boxers if their skills are anywhere close to the same caliber. Same reason that Mayweather - Marquez wasn't even remotely close. Two fighters whose style involves keeping the opponent on the tip of their jab, and one fighter can reach the other, but the other fighter can't reach the one -- that is a one-sided match-up. If you're clearly outgunned in the reach department, then you pretty much have to abandon your boxer style and adopt a swarmer style, but like... when you're one of the best boxers ever, and your swarmer game is completely unpracticed, then you're guaranteed to lose if you do that, because you can't just execute a foreign style at an all-time great level if you never train it and never use it ever. Even if Wlad trained in a swarmer style everyday of his life, there is no guarantee that he would ever be world class at it. You are never guaranteed to be world class at anything just because you spend all day, everyday practicing it for years.

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:No head movement, poor anticipation. Luckily not many fighters in his era had the guts or talent to try and hit him.

you think there had been other routes
he could have gone aside of grabbing?
head movement you can train. not sure
about anticipation, maybe boxing middle
weights?

if it had indeed been chin, the option
emanuel took was probably the only one.

His jab, size and reluctance to engage were plenty effective.

Lackeos wrote:The reason Wlad lost dominantly to Fury is because boxers will lose to taller, rangier boxers if their skills are anywhere close to the same caliber. Same reason that Mayweather - Marquez wasn't even remotely close. Two fighters whose style involves keeping the opponent on the tip of their jab, and one fighter can reach the other, but the other fighter can't reach the one -- that is a one-sided match-up. If you're clearly outgunned in the reach department, then you pretty much have to abandon your boxer style and adopt a swarmer style, but like... when you're one of the best boxers ever, and your swarmer game is completely unpracticed, then you're guaranteed to lose if you do that, because you can't just execute a foreign style at an all-time great level if you never train it and never use it ever. Even if Wlad trained in a swarmer style everyday of his life, there is no guarantee that he would ever be world class at it. You are never guaranteed to be world class at anything just because you spend all day, everyday practicing it for years.

Dunno about the last bit. I'm a world class wanker.

Wlad seems a bit Frank Bruno to me. Not a great chin but that wasn't the only problem. He doesn't cope well with being stunned. Makes him all flustered and off his game.

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:No head movement, poor anticipation. Luckily not many fighters in his era had the guts or talent to try and hit him.

you think there had been other routes
he could have gone aside of grabbing?
head movement you can train. not sure
about anticipation, maybe boxing middle
weights?
.

Saad nailed it

Head movement and anticipation can be trained but are made more.difficult if you cant fight relaxed, which wlad.never really could do


I would actually say as much as furys size beat him, it was the fact that he was relaxed and fluid. If there is hardly any punching going on, you can still get your energy depleted when reacting to.feints and flicks, which fury was doing a lot of and wlad was.constantly adjusting, and not adjusting well as he.wasnt relaxed where fury.was.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:No head movement, poor anticipation. Luckily not many fighters in his era had the guts or talent to try and hit him.

Yep this. Then along came Fury.

Lackeos wrote:The reason Wlad lost dominantly to Fury is because boxers will lose to taller, rangier boxers if their skills are anywhere close to the same caliber. Same reason that Mayweather - Marquez wasn't even remotely close. Two fighters whose style involves keeping the opponent on the tip of their jab, and one fighter can reach the other, but the other fighter can't reach the one -- that is a one-sided match-up. If you're clearly outgunned in the reach department, then you pretty much have to abandon your boxer style and adopt a swarmer style, but like... when you're one of the best boxers ever, and your swarmer game is completely unpracticed, then you're guaranteed to lose if you do that, because you can't just execute a foreign style at an all-time great level if you never train it and never use it ever. Even if Wlad trained in a swarmer style everyday of his life, there is no guarantee that he would ever be world class at it. You are never guaranteed to be world class at anything just because you spend all day, everyday practicing it for years.

i like your analysis of the fury bout.

There's a lot of truth spoken in this thread and a lot of fair analysis of Wlads vulnerabilities

But I wouldn't entirely write off the idea that he has a weak jaw.
He's perhaps not Enzo Mac chinny, but he certainly doesn't have the cast iron punch resistance of his brother.

Take the issues we've raised so far in the thread, combined with maybe a 3 or 4 out 10 chin (if we can rank chins in such a way) and you have a fighter vulnerable to getting toppled when he's hit.

Wlad adjusted to compensate for that. Part of the adjustment was the style he adopted under Steward and part of it was the choice of opponents.

Most of those were to protect him from heavy shots

Fury came along and had the right physical attributes and style to negate those adjustments. And more importantly, was one of the very few fighter who could get a win against Wlad without necessarily getting to that Jaw and causing damage.

Wlad seems to me, (at this time in his career) a cautious perfectionist. Every punch he throws is measured. He loves fighting at his pace and his distance, take him out of that and he's vulnerable. That's what I saw Fury do. Using feights, using lateral movement. Wlad wasn't confident he could land and that perfectionist in him didn't allow him to throw. If you don't throw, you're not going to land.

He is/was excellent at the the outside game, jab, straight and left hook and that's all set up from solid footwork and range awareness, Again though, not to call him one dimensional but being excellent at that and solely fighting like that, begs the question, what else does he have at age 41. He's not a combo or volume puncher like someone like Golovkin, who can create opening by throwing light punches, setting them up for a big bomb. Again the Fury example, if he didn't see an openin for his single measured shot he just didn't fire. He didn't double up, didn't try to out volume. So what's his plan B if Joshua is able to invade and/or avoid his range, let his hands go, I don't think so, try to grab, yes.

As Saadoff the deck said he's head movement is minimal because he instead utilised lateral movement but IMO he's legs are shot now. So if Joshua can keep him just outside his range and then move in an do some mauling, just letting the hands go, I can't see it being a pleasant night for Wlad.

davie wrote:Wlad adjusted to compensate for that. Part of the adjustment was the style he adopted under Steward and part of it was the choice of opponents.

who is the fighter of the last ten
years that wlad avoided?

lazboy wrote:Wlad seems to me, (at this time in his career) a cautious perfectionist. Every punch he throws is measured. He loves fighting at his pace and his distance, take him out of that and he's vulnerable. That's what I saw Fury do. Using feights, using lateral movement. Wlad wasn't confident he could land and that perfectionist in him didn't allow him to throw. If you don't throw, you're not going to land.

He is/was excellent at the the outside game, jab, straight and left hook and that's all set up from solid footwork and range awareness, Again though, not to call him one dimensional but being excellent at that and solely fighting like that, begs the question, what else does he have at age 41. He's not a combo or volume puncher like someone like Golovkin, who can create opening by throwing light punches, setting them up for a big bomb. Again the Fury example, if he didn't see an openin for his single measured shot he just didn't fire. He didn't double up, didn't try to out volume. So what's his plan B if Joshua is able to invade and/or avoid his range, let his hands go, I don't think so, try to grab, yes.

As Saadoff the deck said he's head movement is minimal because he instead utilised lateral movement but IMO he's legs are shot now. So if Joshua can keep him just outside his range and then move in an do some mauling, just letting the hands go, I can't see it being a pleasant night for Wlad.

good post. not sure about wlad's feet
being shot, i don't think footwork was
ever a very relevant factor for his game.

Man, wlad's feet were good at his best and a big part of why he was able to keep fights at his preferred distances.

man wrote:

davie wrote:Wlad adjusted to compensate for that. Part of the adjustment was the style he adopted under Steward and part of it was the choice of opponents.

who is the fighter of the last ten
years that wlad avoided?

Shannon Briggs!!

man wrote:

davie wrote:Wlad adjusted to compensate for that. Part of the adjustment was the style he adopted under Steward and part of it was the choice of opponents.

who is the fighter of the last ten
years that wlad avoided?

I possibly didn't word that right
I wouldn't accuse Wlad of ducking he faced the best of his generation.
More a case of the cards fate dealt him.

His 2 biggest challenges (or certainly the 2 most capable fighters he dealt with) were Haye and Povetkin and both were about 6'2" or 6'3" and suited perfectly to his style and more appropriately to his wrestling

Counter-puncher wrote:Man, wlad's feet were good at his best and a big part of why he was able to keep fights at his preferred distances.

i am not teasing here. can you point
me to a fight where he did that? unlike
ali for example i never felt that he used
footwork to keep himself at a distance.

i felt in his early going his main tool
to achieve that was either his size or
the power of his jab. these were what
kept people at distance.

later on he was just grabbing and then
pushing back to avoid inside action.
but i am always willing to be corrected ...

davie wrote:

man wrote:

davie wrote:Wlad adjusted to compensate for that. Part of the adjustment was the style he adopted under Steward and part of it was the choice of opponents.

who is the fighter of the last ten
years that wlad avoided?

I possibly didn't word that right
I wouldn't accuse Wlad of ducking he faced the best of his generation.
More a case of the cards fate dealt him.

His 2 biggest challenges (or certainly the 2 most capable fighters he dealt with) were Haye and Povetkin and both were about 6'2" or 6'3" and suited perfectly to his style and more appropriately to his wrestling

i see your point.

man wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:Man, wlad's feet were good at his best and a big part of why he was able to keep fights at his preferred distances.

i am not teasing here. can you point
me to a fight where he did that? unlike
ali for example i never felt that he used
footwork to keep himself at a distance.

i felt in his early going his main tool
to achieve that was either his size or
the power of his jab. these were what
kept people at distance.

later on he was just grabbing and then
pushing back to avoid inside action.
but i am always willing to be corrected ...

All of them. His feet adjusted well in his 'boxer' years, whether you.noticed or not. Tall upright fighters without head movement, like him, don't go years hardly taking any major head shots, without moving their feet pretty well.

If you watch the haye fight you'll see how haye, an athletic fighter himself, could never get in the range he wanted, due to wlads movement.

Counter-puncher wrote:If you watch the haye fight you'll see how haye, an athletic fighter himself, could never get in the range he wanted, due to wlads movement.

will rewatch haye then. first time around
i was too furious about the continuous
non punching. probably the fight with
the fewest punches thrown in all boxing
history.

Hugging alone wont protect a chin like wlads for the best part of ten years. It was his scaredycat feet as much as the hugging.

Counter-puncher wrote:

man wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:Man, wlad's feet were good at his best and a big part of why he was able to keep fights at his preferred distances.

i am not teasing here. can you point
me to a fight where he did that? unlike
ali for example i never felt that he used
footwork to keep himself at a distance.

i felt in his early going his main tool
to achieve that was either his size or
the power of his jab. these were what
kept people at distance.

later on he was just grabbing and then
pushing back to avoid inside action.
but i am always willing to be corrected ...

All of them. His feet adjusted well in his 'boxer' years, whether you.noticed or not. Tall upright fighters without head movement, like him, don't go years hardly taking any major head shots, without moving their feet pretty well.

If you watch the haye fight you'll see how haye, an athletic fighter himself, could never get in the range he wanted, due to wlads movement.

Sometimes footwork doesn't need to be dancing round the ring, doing the ali shuffle.
3 words tell all you need to know about Wlads footwork........ Half step back

That's all he needed and he used it to absolutely fantastic effect. Use his height and reach as leverage to keep you at range, the second a fighter moves in, he has 2 options depending on his tactics for the fight, grab or take a half step back.

When he took option one it turned ugly, when he utilised the movement he looked untouchable and got himself right into position to launch the next shot, so simple but so difficult to do anything about given Wlads well drilled approach and his physical attributes

man wrote: against kubrat pulev did seem to
show some of that "metal".

IMHO his only chance against joshua is to
find this place within himself, because all
the other tactics won't work this time at
this location agains this opponent.

Pulev was a very hittable Heavyweight and very slow. He's big and strong and his jab is formidable, but he slips punches very poorly. He can't get under a punch. I knew the left hook would obliterate him. If you can't duck punches, jabs set you up and hooks will destroy you. Chris Algieri got murdered by Errol Spence. He ducks right into the hook.

The jab and hook are great weapons for Wladimir and Pulev was an ideal opponent. Frazier didn't have a jab, but his quick left hook kept ripping Ali. Fighters who have problems with the hook generally have a stance issue. Wlad had a poor stance before Steward got him.

Joshua fought easy guys so far. Whyte is the best he's faced and can box a little bit. Martin and Breazeale can't slip or duck punches. Breazeale is big, tall, long limbed and powerful, but has terrible trainers. He’s so strong he beats the crap out of his opponents. He doesn't outbox anyone. Fury is actually a good boxer. If he weren’t a mental case he'd be great, but doesn’t train his body.

Wladimir has faced about 6 or 7 good boxers and Joshua faced one marginally good boxer. Now AJ will be facing a great boxer. Joshua had such a limited amateur background -- and fought so few professional rounds due to his outstanding punching ability that Wladimir will be very confident coming into this fight. He's had 200 amateur fights and almost 70 pro fights.

Klitschko’s confidence will dissipate in 2 or 3 rounds. Joshua is a natural boxer and hooks don’t find him. Right hand counters don’t find him. His sense of range and distance are superb, and will keep Wlad from punishing him with jabs and hooks. He’ll be very wary because Wlad has 100 different set-up tricks in his bag. None will work. This will not be Louis-Schmeling 1. AJ doesn’t have those defensive vulnerabilities. Wladimir will get KO’d out or his corner will stop it.