BoxRec

in terms of quality, not record (oldschool records with 200+ fights and half were against guys with 5 wins-8 losses-3 draws, basicly paid sparring sessions) and not hype (you aint the greatest when you shout you are the greatest, you are the greatest when your abilitys are the greatest).

1. Roy Jones Jr
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sugar Ray Leonard
4. Manny Pacquiao
5. Guillermo Rigondeaux

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Willie Pep
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Jack Johnson
5. Mohammad Ali

Those short records you're talking about are predominantly unreported bouts. Greb and Langford are my top 2 followed by Robinson, Armstrong' and Charles. To keep in line with your question I'm just going to list guys of my lifetime that I've seen all their significant fights. 1. Duran 2. Leonard 3. Ali4. Hearns5. Whitaker

There are some amazing statistics and interesting facts about all of the all time greats. One that particularly sticks out in my mind is Henry Armstrong, who is the only guy to be champion at 3 weight classes at once. During that time, he even challenged for the middleweight championship, but didn't get it because of a draw. If he had gotten it, that would equate to being champion in 7 different weight classes at the same time.

Jip wrote:in terms of quality, not record (oldschool records with 200+ fights and half were against guys with 5 wins-8 losses-3 draws, basicly paid sparring sessions) and not hype (you aint the greatest when you shout you are the greatest, you are the greatest when your abilitys are the greatest).

1. Roy Jones Jr
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sugar Ray Leonard
4. Manny Pacquiao
5. Guillermo Rigondeaux

Ever?????
Is this the best or favorite fighters that would have said before when I see the list. .


My best 5
1.Sugar Ray Robinson
2.Henry Armstrong
3.Willie Pep
4.Harry Greb
5.Muhammad Ali

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Those short records you're talking about are predominantly unreported bouts. Greb and Langford are my top 2 followed by Robinson, Armstrong' and Charles. To keep in line with your question I'm just going to list guys of my lifetime that I've seen all their significant fights. 1. Duran 2. Leonard 3. Ali4. Hearns5. Whitaker

I like your way of thinking - you have the same top 5 greatest list as me, but in a slightly different order. Yes, this list takes records into account, I just think it's silly to make a list that discounts quality of opposition as it's the most important factor for determining how good someone actually was.

1. Robinson
2. Greb
3. Armstrong
4. Langford
5. Charles

Best in the last 30 years (whole career taken into account):

1. Duran
2. Leonard
3. Hagler
4. Hearns
5. Mayweather

Jip wrote:1. Roy Jones Jr
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sugar Ray Leonard
4. Manny Pacquiao
5. Guillermo Rigondeaux

Now I realize that Jip is someone's alt. Who was that dolt that had RJJ and Rigondeaux in his top 5 all-time list? My memory isn't what it used to be.

Top three are:

Henry Armstrong
Harry Greb
Sam Langford

Last two I'm not sure, could be:

Sugar Ray Leonard, Muhammed Ali, Joe Louis, Willie Pep, Sugar Ray Robinson, Manny Pacquiao, Roberto Duran, Gene Tunney, Benny Leonard, Rocky Marciano, Mickey Walker, Jack Britton, Roy Jones or Archie Moore.

Lackeos wrote:

Jip wrote:1. Roy Jones Jr
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sugar Ray Leonard
4. Manny Pacquiao
5. Guillermo Rigondeaux

Now I realize that Jip is someone's alt. Who was that dolt that had RJJ and Rigondeaux in his top 5 all-time list? My memory isn't what it used to be.

put robinson against prime roy at middleweight and you'd see why roy is #1

Lackeos wrote:

Jip wrote:1. Roy Jones Jr
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sugar Ray Leonard
4. Manny Pacquiao
5. Guillermo Rigondeaux

Now I realize that Jip is someone's alt. Who was that dolt that had RJJ and Rigondeaux in his top 5 all-time list? My memory isn't what it used to be.

It's cheppappa or however you spell it.

punchoutsb wrote:

Lackeos wrote:

Jip wrote:1. Roy Jones Jr
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sugar Ray Leonard
4. Manny Pacquiao
5. Guillermo Rigondeaux

Now I realize that Jip is someone's alt. Who was that dolt that had RJJ and Rigondeaux in his top 5 all-time list? My memory isn't what it used to be.

It's cheppappa or however you spell it.

I don't get all this love for past era. I mean every single sports on the planet got better, bigger, faster and what ever. I can see why SRR, Armstrong and Ali can make the list but to put on the side all of the modern era is kind of dumb. I d put Floyd top 5 ever and SRL to complete.
1.SRR
2.Armstrong
3.Ali
4.Leonard
5.Floyd

To early for them but GGG and Lomachenko could defenitly land on the top 5 in a decade or so.

1. Harry Greb
2. Sam Langford
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ezzard Charles

The Top 5 best I've seen in real time would look like a pretty recent list because it would be pretty recent (encompassing the last 16 years or so). I've gone back and watched a lot of older footage of fighters though.

Cloutov wrote:I don't get all this love for past era. I mean every single sports on the planet got better, bigger, faster and what ever. I can see why SRR, Armstrong and Ali can make the list but to put on the side all of the modern era is kind of dumb. I d put Floyd top 5 ever and SRL to complete.
1.SRR
2.Armstrong
3.Ali
4.Leonard
5.Floyd

To early for them but GGG and Lomachenko could defenitly land on the top 5 in a decade or so.

What I don't get is only comparing past era fighters vs modern fighters with their medical benefits and diets and knowledge gleaned from the past. Yet not comparing modern fighters back into past era. For example, any modern fighter whose brittle hands were repaired to working order by modern medicine would not have survived the past era.

Middleweight Stanley Ketchel never seems to get enough love.

Top 5? I dunno but the Michigan Assassin is definitely in the conversation.

Murdered at an early age, long before he reached his prime, but still only lost to Papke (avenged twice) and legendary heavyweights Jack Johnson and Sam Langford.

Rigo as an all-time top 5 fighter?

The mind boggles.

Cloutov wrote:I don't get all this love for past era. I mean every single sports on the planet got better, bigger, faster and what ever. I can see why SRR, Armstrong and Ali can make the list but to put on the side all of the modern era is kind of dumb. I d put Floyd top 5 ever and SRL to complete.
1.SRR
2.Armstrong
3.Ali
4.Leonard
5.Floyd

To early for them but GGG and Lomachenko could defenitly land on the top 5 in a decade or so.

finaly someone makes sense. every sport in the world, the athletes got better with time, but not in boxing what a joke, when you look at old videos of old school boxer how slow, stiff and robotic they were, like jack johnson would have a chance against a 87' mike tyson robinson and ali were ahead of their time, ones in a century kind of talents, not rare, but super rare. floyd is easily top 5-10, loma got the skills to end up top 10, ggg is to stiff, but he can end up the best middleweight ever, i would certainly favour him against hagler.

If I had to add one or two to my list, I would add Gene Tunney and Harry Greb, in that order, since Tunny beat Greb 3 out of 5 times, with one being a draw. Tunney finished 65-1-1

punchoutsb wrote:

Lackeos wrote:

Jip wrote:1. Roy Jones Jr
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sugar Ray Leonard
4. Manny Pacquiao
5. Guillermo Rigondeaux

Now I realize that Jip is someone's alt. Who was that dolt that had RJJ and Rigondeaux in his top 5 all-time list? My memory isn't what it used to be.

It's cheppappa or however you spell it.

Yeah. Now it all makes sense. Jip is Cheppaaa.

Jip wrote:

Cloutov wrote:I don't get all this love for past era. I mean every single sports on the planet got better, bigger, faster and what ever. I can see why SRR, Armstrong and Ali can make the list but to put on the side all of the modern era is kind of dumb. I d put Floyd top 5 ever and SRL to complete.
1.SRR
2.Armstrong
3.Ali
4.Leonard
5.Floyd

To early for them but GGG and Lomachenko could defenitly land on the top 5 in a decade or so.

finaly someone makes sense. every sport in the world, the athletes got better with time, but not in boxing what a joke, when you look at old videos of old school boxer how slow, stiff and robotic they were, like jack johnson would have a chance against a 87' mike tyson robinson and ali were ahead of their time, ones in a century kind of talents, not rare, but super rare. floyd is easily top 5-10, loma got the skills to end up top 10, ggg is to stiff, but he can end up the best middleweight ever, i would certainly favour him against hagler.

The reason boxing is party an exception to this rule is that the sport has been in decline for a long time - decreasing in popularity and decreasing in the % of young athletic men taking it up as more and more are turning to other sports such as football, basketball and other combat sports. This has been partly, but not completely offset by boxing becoming a more global sport. Part of the reason older fighters sometimes look slow/stiff/robotic is that the old footage is very choppy, with few frames-per-second. I don't think the quality and quantity of video evidence is enough to assess how good someone like Jack Johnson really was, which is why I tend not to enter into who-beats-who discussions involving fighters from the pre Joe Louis era.

GGG is my favourite fighter and he has no shot in hell of being in the all-time top 5 - he just doesn't have enough time or quality opponents around his weight to make it. I agree that he and Lomachenko are special talents. I've never heard anyone refer to GGG as stiff before - I think he moves really well, he just isn't blessed with great handspeed, but he makes up for it with great timing, technical prowess and power.

Ray Robinson
Floyd Mayweather
Henry Armstrong
Roberto Duran
Muhammad Ali

It makes it tough with only 5, every one of these fighters can be argued one way or another.
couldn't drop any of them. I am surprised however that Joe Louis hasn't been given a guernsey so far.

Jip wrote:finaly someone makes sense. every sport in the world, the athletes got better with time, but not in boxing what a joke, when you look at old videos of old school boxer how slow, stiff and robotic they were, like jack johnson would have a chance against a 87' mike tyson robinson and ali were ahead of their time, ones in a century kind of talents, not rare, but super rare. floyd is easily top 5-10, loma got the skills to end up top 10, ggg is to stiff, but he can end up the best middleweight ever, i would certainly favour him against hagler.

I've never really understood the whole "in every other sport the athletes have gotten better over time" thing. Fans of other sports have exactly the same kind of debates for such as "Maradonna vs Messi" / "Chamberlain vs LeBron" / "Borg vs Djokovic" etc etc. And in those sports there hasn't been the same huge decline in participation / general popular interest as there has been in boxing also.

Johnson toys with and destroys Tyson who was vastly more robotic and one dimensional IMO.

HyacinthusTurnipseed wrote:

Jip wrote:finaly someone makes sense. every sport in the world, the athletes got better with time, but not in boxing what a joke, when you look at old videos of old school boxer how slow, stiff and robotic they were, like jack johnson would have a chance against a 87' mike tyson robinson and ali were ahead of their time, ones in a century kind of talents, not rare, but super rare. floyd is easily top 5-10, loma got the skills to end up top 10, ggg is to stiff, but he can end up the best middleweight ever, i would certainly favour him against hagler.

I've never really understood the whole "in every other sport the athletes have gotten better over time" thing. Fans of other sports have exactly the same kind of debates for such as "Maradonna vs Messi" / "Chamberlain vs LeBron" / "Borg vs Djokovic" etc etc. And in those sports there hasn't been the same huge decline in participation / general popular interest as there has been in boxing also.

Johnson toys with and destroys Tyson who was vastly more robotic and one dimensional IMO.

Could you point me to some footage where you think it's clear that Johnson was leagues above Tyson?

Mayweather's being too highly ranked on here.

I don't like to rate ATG lists on who would beat who.

There are to many variables and advantages that different eras had over another.
Canelo probably enters the ring 15lbs heavier than middleweights or the 20s or 30s. Great heavyweights of yesteryear weighed less than some current LHWs. Context has to applied to the circumstances of the day.
Sport science, strength and conditioning, nutrition etc all give advantages. Where as old school fighter were matched differently, more time in the ring to learn their craft, not the same degree of career management we see now with protected '0's.

Who beats who works better for a current p4p lists, although it's still strewn with difficulties.
ATG lists need to favour achievement over trying to figure out who would have won an imaginary contest.
But even then, basing it on achievement still has to factor in various elements, appropraite to the era, that influence records to keep it in context.

As such I can't take any list seriously that lists Rigondeaux top 50 ATG.
The guy isn't top 5 p4p right now and will never have a great resume.

SRR
Langford
Greb
Armstrong
Pep