BoxRec

I would like to ask the posters of Classic American West Coast thread if they can tell me THE BIG REASON of grudge matches between Mexican nationals vs Chicanos (U.S. born fighters of Mexican heritage).

I don't ever recall the posters in that thread ever mentioning something close to that. Neither anyone from this forum has ever brought a topic about it.

I have seen great Chicano vs Mexican wars throughout the years on tv. Is there a resentment of why we have these types of wars in boxing? They sure were entertaining.

I will also very soon will make a list of the 20 best Chicano fighters of all-time. I think it would be a great discussion.

Also, probably a subjective list of the top 20 greatest Mexican vs Chicano wars in boxing history. It should be entertaining for a thread.

elmersalsa wrote:I would like to ask the posters of Classic American West Coast thread if they can tell me THE BIG REASON of grudge matches between Mexican nationals vs Chicanos (U.S. born fighters of Mexican heritage).

I don't ever recall the posters in that thread ever mentioning something close to that. Neither anyone from this forum has ever brought a topic about it.

I have seen great Chicano vs Mexican wars throughout the years on tv. Is there a resentment of why we have these types of wars in boxing? They sure were entertaining.

I will also very soon will make a list of the 20 best Chicano fighters of all-time. I think it would be a great discussion.

Also, probably a subjective list of the top 20 greatest Mexican vs Chicano wars in boxing history. It should be entertaining for a thread.

Elmersalsa,the grudge comes from the Mexican national point of view. Mexican nationals consider Chicanos as Americans. As much as Mexico is in a state of turmoil and has always played kind of "second fiddle" to the U.S. ,Mexico still has great pride in their customs and traditions. When a Mexican national fighter whips a Chicano fighter, it's like a personal victory for the national. With it being fighting,it is especially gratifying.

I remember when DeLaJoya won his Olympic gold medal. I was in Mexico at the time. It was reported in their press(I watched the news on their television,Azteca).I'll paraphrase,"Oscar DeLaJoya,an American, won a gold medal in the flyweight category."That was it.

The Chicanos understand where this is coming from and they live with it. One last anecdote. When I was coaching American football at a school in TJ,one of the players(an outstanding athlete)wanted to come to San Diego to play ball.i was leaving the school in TJ because I was getting standard pay of 60 dollars a week. We needed an avenue to get the kid up here. The U.S. school got him in on a foreign exchange deal. That meant he had to live with an American family. When I told the kid the news he said,"That's OK with me,but I won't live with a Chicano family."

I hope I gave you some insights.

dagosd2000 wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:I would like to ask the posters of Classic American West Coast thread if they can tell me THE BIG REASON of grudge matches between Mexican nationals vs Chicanos (U.S. born fighters of Mexican heritage).

I don't ever recall the posters in that thread ever mentioning something close to that. Neither anyone from this forum has ever brought a topic about it.

I have seen great Chicano vs Mexican wars throughout the years on tv. Is there a resentment of why we have these types of wars in boxing? They sure were entertaining.

I will also very soon will make a list of the 20 best Chicano fighters of all-time. I think it would be a great discussion.

Also, probably a subjective list of the top 20 greatest Mexican vs Chicano wars in boxing history. It should be entertaining for a thread.

Elmersalsa,the grudge comes from the Mexican national point of view. Mexican nationals consider Chicanos as Americans. As much as Mexico is in a state of turmoil and has always played kind of "second fiddle" to the U.S. ,Mexico still has great pride in their customs and traditions. When a Mexican national fighter whips a Chicano fighter, it's like a personal victory for the national. With it being fighting,it is especially gratifying.

I remember when DeLaJoya won his Olympic gold medal. I was in Mexico at the time. It was reported in their press(I watched the news on their television,Azteca).I'll paraphrase,"Oscar DeLaJoya,an American, won a gold medal in the flyweight category."That was it.

The Chicanos understand where this is coming from and they live with it. One last anecdote. When I was coaching American football at a school in TJ,one of the players(an outstanding athlete)wanted to come to San Diego to play ball.i was leaving the school in TJ because I was getting standard pay of 60 dollars a week. We needed an avenue to get the kid up here. The U.S. school got him in on a foreign exchange deal. That meant he had to live with an American family. When I told the kid the news he said,"That's OK with me,but I won't live with a Chicano family."

I hope I gave you some insights.

That's some interesting insight, dagosd2000. I could see the resentment also when it comes to Puerto Rican nationals vs New York Ricans. I talked to a Puerto Rican one time, why is there an animosity between them and New York Ricans. He simply told me that it was because NY Ricans believe that they were superior.

One time I encountered a Chicano in an auto salvage store here in Atlanta. Sensing I that he looked Latin/Hispanic, I tried to talk to him in Spanish. It was like he did not want to talk the language at all. I assumed that talking Spanish to him was beneath him. So I left him alone. I told that to a Mexican national and he told me that's a Chicano for you. They don't want nothing to do with their Mexican heritage.

Thanks dagosd2000

elmersalsa wrote:

dagosd2000 wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:I would like to ask the posters of Classic American West Coast thread if they can tell me THE BIG REASON of grudge matches between Mexican nationals vs Chicanos (U.S. born fighters of Mexican heritage).

I don't ever recall the posters in that thread ever mentioning something close to that. Neither anyone from this forum has ever brought a topic about it.

I have seen great Chicano vs Mexican wars throughout the years on tv. Is there a resentment of why we have these types of wars in boxing? They sure were entertaining.

I will also very soon will make a list of the 20 best Chicano fighters of all-time. I think it would be a great discussion.

Also, probably a subjective list of the top 20 greatest Mexican vs Chicano wars in boxing history. It should be entertaining for a thread.

Elmersalsa,the grudge comes from the Mexican national point of view. Mexican nationals consider Chicanos as Americans. As much as Mexico is in a state of turmoil and has always played kind of "second fiddle" to the U.S. ,Mexico still has great pride in their customs and traditions. When a Mexican national fighter whips a Chicano fighter, it's like a personal victory for the national. With it being fighting,it is especially gratifying.

I remember when DeLaJoya won his Olympic gold medal. I was in Mexico at the time. It was reported in their press(I watched the news on their television,Azteca).I'll paraphrase,"Oscar DeLaJoya,an American, won a gold medal in the flyweight category."That was it.

The Chicanos understand where this is coming from and they live with it. One last anecdote. When I was coaching American football at a school in TJ,one of the players(an outstanding athlete)wanted to come to San Diego to play ball.i was leaving the school in TJ because I was getting standard pay of 60 dollars a week. We needed an avenue to get the kid up here. The U.S. school got him in on a foreign exchange deal. That meant he had to live with an American family. When I told the kid the news he said,"That's OK with me,but I won't live with a Chicano family."

I hope I gave you some insights.

That's some interesting insight, dagosd2000. I could see the resentment also when it comes to Puerto Rican nationals vs New York Ricans. I talked to a Puerto Rican one time, why is there an animosity between them and New York Ricans. He simply told me that it was because NY Ricans believe that they were superior.

One time I encountered a Chicano in an auto salvage store here in Atlanta. Sensing I that he looked Latin/Hispanic, I tried to talk to him in Spanish. It was like he did not want to talk the language at all. I assumed that talking Spanish to him was beneath him. So I left him alone. I told that to a Mexican national and he told me that's a Chicano for you. They don't want nothing to do with their Mexican heritage.

Thanks dagosd2000

For the Chicano it's a no win battle. For them to try to be like a Mexican national is hopeless. if their parents were born in Mexico,they come closer to having some sort of empathy. If they go with their parents to visit relatives in Mexico,they might feel some shame because of the poverty and corruption.Take it to the bank,they'll never live in Mexico. Sometimes I think the Chicano has it tougher to try to assimilate.They are in kind of a limbo. White people will look at them as Mexicans more than seeing them as Americans.God help the Chicano who can't speak Spanish when confronted by any type of Latino who can speak Spanish. Along the border on the Mexican side it's common for Mexican nationals to give their kids American names. For example my great grandchildren who were born in TJ have names like Cindy,Christian,Erika,Michelle,and Jada. My great grandchildren in Michoacán have names like Maria DeJesus,Guadalupe,Ramiro,Concepcion,and Jose Luis.

Status in Mexico is very important at every social level. If you live in TJ and have a job in San Diego you strut around like a gamecock. If you can emigrate to the U.S. and get a green card or citizenship papers you're an aristocrat.If you're a legal immigrant another mark of moving up is to have a house built in your hometown in Mexico,but then you have to have a house constructed that's bigger than your other relatives that have done the same thing.I have a niece that built a two story mansion with 3 bathrooms.Her sister bought some property right across the street and has a house being built,two stories with 4 bathrooms. I don't think she'll ever get it completed because the cost of materials have skyrocketed.Here's the standard criteria for building a house:two stories,built in kitchen,a spiral staircase to the second floor,a heavy oak door with a stained glass window,and a cast iron gate around the property.It's not uncommon to see houses that are under construction that take 15 years to be completed. Sometimes because of a lack of funds the work is left unfinished.Leaving a house vacant in Mexico is a risk. Vandals will destroy the place if left unoccupied.My wife and I had a one story house built that is satisfactory for us. My wife's sister lives next door and our nephew lives across the street. They watch out for us.

One irony is that the parents who immigrated ,have kids,later grandkids;and think that they are going to retire in Mexico in their old age.The parents have formed a co dependency with their kids,and grandkids and realize that are NOT going to retire in Mexico.Their kids don't want to live down there. They are Americans and like going to the malls and eating at MacDonalds. Commodities like TV's,cars,I Pads,and clothes are cheaper in the U.S.and there is more variety. If you buy something new here and it breaks,you can take it back. In Mexico there are no guarantees.

Michoacán ,where my wife is from,is the Mecca for avocados in the world. Because the avocados are shipped up here,it costs more for a avocado in Michoacán than in San Diego.There are very few safety nets for the average person in Mexico. Don't think that most Mexicans would give anything to live in the U.S. The Mexican elitists and narcos who run everything don't have that problem. They have enough juice to come up here anytime they want.

To get back to the main topic,here's my pick:Bobby Chacon and Ruben Olivares(both fights)

Rog, the first one I thought of was 'Superfly' Sandoval against Alfonso Zamora. And from there I thought of that crazy night that almost cost the Olympic its final curtain call with the double-header between Danny lopez and Chucho Castillo followed by Frankie Duarte against Famosito Gomez, which touched off the riot.

Ruben Olivares fought Bobby Chacon three times. I attended their third fight.

- Chuck Johnston

Bobby Chacon vs Bazooka Limon IV is one of the 3 greatest fights that I have ever seen. It was a brutal and emotional affair. I love Bobby Chacon. He was a true warrior no matter what. He fought the great Ruben Olivares 3 times and Limon 4 times! I asked myself why so much animosity?
And now, I understand it more because of dagosd2000 explanation.

But, I have also seen many Mexican nationals having a great deal of love for Oscar De La Hoya. I have never considered him a true great fighter. Neither a true Mexican macho man. But, he could be tough when the stakes were high like in his fight with Ike Quartey. He showed that in that fight, he was a TOUGH HOMBRE. He made all Mexicans and Chicanos proud that night. Probably, today's Mexican youth are more tolerant with Oscar than the old school Mexicans. The ones that rooted for Fernando Vargas. In the eyes of many of them, Vargas was more acceptable as a true Chicano and Mexican fighter. He was much more liked than Oscar. Oscar was much more of smart and pretty good looks and charm that the American society embraced more. He was the establishment and Vargas the anti-social one, even though he was also Chicano.

I know that many Mexicans didn't like it when their greatest boxing idol, the great Julio Cesar Chavez, lost by a fourth round stoppage to De La Hoya.

Elmer, I think Danny Lopez summed it up correctly when he said that the Mexican fan would always cheer for him wildly...until he fought a Mexican national. That's when he knew where he stood with the Mexican audience. Albert Davila also experienced this, which is why at one point in his career he added an 'O' at the end of Albert to gain some acceptance. But when you mentioned DeLaHoya-Chavez, man do I have nasty memories of that one. I went to an arena to watch the live telecast and believe me, Mexican and Chicano alike were absolutely in Chavez corner. It was the most disgraceful event I was ever at with the vile cursing of Oscar permeating throughout the arena. You'd swear he did something personal to them. I was rooting for Chavez that night to win, but they were rooting for dismemberment on Oscar and the maternal side of his family.

I would probably also do a thread about classic Puerto Rican vs Mexican wars, too. They have given the boxing enthusiasts some great animosity wars like Salvador Sanchez vs Wilfredo Gomez and Wilfredo Gomez vs Carlos Zarate.

But, I have never seen the animosity between Chicano fighters vs Puerto Rican fighters. But, when Oscar De La Hoya lost to Felix "Tito" Trinidad in the stupid fight called "The Fight of the Millennium", Oscar said that he disappointed his Mexican fans. Did he needed the support of the Mexican fans for this fight? Because the Puerto Rican fans saw the fight as Mexico vs Puerto Rico even though Oscar is Chicano. There was nothing in between with the Boricuas.
Oscar was very smart in manipulating his double nationality.

Would Oscar would have won the Mexican fans by not running like a chicken in the last 3 rounds and stand and trade punches like a TOUGH HOMBRE to close the show?

In regards to Mexican nationals supporting Mexican fighters when the latter are in the ring with Chicano fighters, I came to accept it as fact of life. I remained grateful to the Mexican fans because they kept the fight game alive in California.

- Chuck Johnston

I can imagine that it was a fun time for Los Angeles boxing fans in the 1940s through the 1970s.

Great Chicano fighters like Art Aragon (the original Golden Boy), Manuel Ortiz, Battling Torres, Bobby Chacon, Mando Ramos, Raul Rojas, Ruben Navarro, Danny "Little Red" Lopez, Ernie "Red" Lopez, Albert Davila matching their skills with Mexican idols like Ruben Olivares, Chucho Castillo, Eloy Sanchez, Joe Medel, Joe Becerra, Raton Macias, Rodolfo "Gato" Gonzalez, Chango Carmona, Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles (via Cuba), and Carlos Zarate to name a few.

I watched Danny Lopez vs Ruben Olivares. Boy!, did they threw leather?

The venues like The Forum, L.A. Olympic Coliseum, Sports Arena and other venues for these men to lace them up must be something to see.

Besides attending fight shows at the Olympic Auditorium, the Inglewood Forum and the L.A. Sports Area, I also saw fights at a number of other venues in the L.A. area, including the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium, a club in Reseda, an American Legion auditorium in Culver City and a large building (The Shrine Exposition Hall?) that is located near the L.A. Shrine Auditorium.

- Chuck Johnston