BoxRec

Is Lennox Lewis a top 100 pound per pound all-time great boxer?

Give me your honest opinion?

Yes, probably top 75.

Top 3 Heavyweight... Top 20 P4P -- if you're talking about a guy who knew how to win and has an official victory over every man he ever fought.

My initial thought was: No

I have Lennox on the outskirts of my top 10 Heavyweights but there's just so many great fighters throughout the weight classes...

I find it hard to include heavyweights in to all time p4p lists as the size of them almost make heavyweight a stand alone sport on its own, at heavy he could be top 5, all time hes definitely in the top 100 but would take me years to decide exactly where he fits

In my view, he didn't make the top 10 best heavyweight boxers ever. Neither he made the top 100 best fighters of all time.

The Hasim Rahman and Oliver McCall fights gave me a bad taste in his rankings. Losing to TWO BUMS, and by NASTY KNOCKOUTS didn't help his legacy either.

They were not bums.

If George Foreman puts a fighter on his "No Fight List"

You have to consider that fighter a credible candidate.

Fighters on that list.....

Jerry Quarry
Lennox Lewis....


Interesting how different they are....one a big Mac Style HW, the other....a smaller guy.


Seems he signed on a little bit to both box-rec regimens of HW logic distillation.

George wasn't interested in bowe either

Lewis is close to the top 10 hw and so is close to the top 100 P4P.
He may be at the end of the list or use one of the first behind the top 100th

Probably the best heavyweight ever ... could blast guys out or box 12 easily ... So yes.

BoxBuzz wrote:If George Foreman puts a fighter on his "No Fight List"

You have to consider that fighter a credible candidate.

Fighters on that list.....

Jerry Quarry
Lennox Lewis....


Interesting how different they are....one a big Mac Style HW, the other....a smaller guy.


Seems he signed on a little bit to both box-rec regimens of HW logic distillation.

Foreman had a LONG "no fight" list: ... Lennox Lewis... Ray Mercer... Larry Holmes... Oliver McCall... Razor Ruddock... Riddick Bowe... Mike Tyson and a few more... George joked that he made a "big mistake" in fighting Alex Stewart -- as he had ice bags pressed against his head and face from huge swelling and discoloration after the fight.. Stewart could hit, though he looked damned beatable getting blown away by Mike Tyson a year earlier.

However, Jerry Quarry was even beaten by George Chuvalo---who got a slow left hook on Jerry that ended their fight.. Chuvalo was nothing for Foreman.. There was no reason for Jerry to be on his list, because Quarry wasn't a great mover... wasn't a great jabber... wasn't a massive puncher... It would be like putting Floyd Patterson on his no-fight list.. Quarry was a damned good counterpuncher -- and George tended to swing big against slick boxers.. But he DIDN'T swing big when somebody was right in his wheelhouse and available to be hit -- like Frazier, Norton, Chuvalo, and Quarry were.. He would have murdered Quarry.. Gee Whiz, Gil Clancy predicted Quarry would knock Norton out.. Norton was WAY too big, tall, strong, and skilled for Lil' Jerry.

I think if you are a fair minded person, you might at least CONSIDER that the Quarry-Chuvalo fight was a possible anomaly.

Also you might CONSIDER that the Norton Quarry affair included two fighters at different points in their respective careers...peak wise.

But then a FAIR minded person, might also imagine that the Holmes Ali Affair took place at two different points in their careers as well. And take very little of meaning from it.

By the way....I don't believe you are quoting any Foreman list......but what you are doing is assuming that every fight Foreman did not engage in had some sort of meaning. And perhaps was on his list. The names I mentioned are about fighters he actually said he avoided. If he included those other names, could you point in what publication I might find that info?

Thanks in advance for your assured response on this.

I notice that you OFTEN speak of almost any fight that did NOT take place as having some hidden meaning. Have you noticed that?

Now granted some events that don't take place probably do have meaning....and they bubble up for conversation quite often. But you seem to deduce that nearly ALL fights that don't take place, have a meaning.

IN my minds eye....Sometimes.....opportunities just don't present themselves. And not every thing that does NOT happen has a particular meaning.

For example: The Nuclear war between France and Pakistan that has never happened, probably has little meaning that we can draw from it.


I suppose a fight I would have liked to have seen would be Saad vs Mustafa II. I believe it was booked, and simply fell through for some reason.
However...since the both signed up for it, I guess I can't assume that one avoided the other......it just simply did not take place for monetary reasons....

Hell no

Don't put HWs in my p4p musings...

I wouldn't even know where to start in figuring out who is top 100 P4P, other than the really obviously ones. It'd require so much in depth knowledge of most divisions in every era.

It is very tough when you are comparing different eras and even more so with vastly different weight classes. If you have ever done these kinds of lists, you find that it is like a pyramid. The very top group of fighters is small. The next level is a little bigger, and so on. There is much less difference between whom you have ranked at #70 and #100 then there is who you have at #1 and #31.

Without exaggerating, there are at least 50 guys outside my Top 100 whom I would have no problem being in the Top 100.

Would be nice if one day elmersalsa would actually post who has in his Top 100, rather than periodically picking out a guy he doesn't like and saying he isn't a Top 100.

I count heavyweights in my "musings". (I like that word ) Lennox Lewis is one the top 100.

BoxBuzz wrote:I think if you are a fair minded person, you might at least CONSIDER that the Quarry-Chuvalo fight was a possible anomaly.

Also you might CONSIDER that the Norton Quarry affair included two fighters at different points in their respective careers...peak wise.

But then a FAIR minded person, might also imagine that the Holmes Ali Affair took place at two different points in their careers as well. And take very little of meaning from it.

By the way....I don't believe you are quoting any Foreman list......but what you are doing is assuming that every fight Foreman did not engage in had some sort of meaning. And perhaps was on his list. The names I mentioned are about fighters he actually said he avoided. If he included those other names, could you point in what publication I might find that info?

Thanks in advance for your assured response on this.

I notice that you OFTEN speak of almost any fight that did NOT take place as having some hidden meaning. Have you noticed that?

Now granted some events that don't take place probably do have meaning....and they bubble up for conversation quite often. But you seem to deduce that nearly ALL fights that don't take place, have a meaning.

IN my minds eye....Sometimes.....opportunities just don't present themselves. And not every thing that does NOT happen has a particular meaning.

For example: The Nuclear war between France and Pakistan that has never happened, probably has little meaning that we can draw from it.


I suppose a fight I would have liked to have seen would be Saad vs Mustafa II. I believe it was booked, and simply fell through for some reason.
However...since the both signed up for it, I guess I can't assume that one avoided the other......it just simply did not take place for monetary reasons....

1. You consider any fight that doesn't go the way your biased mind says it should an anomaly... 2. It doesn't matter what stage of career Quarry was in. He had lousy fights during all stages... 3. Ali ducked Holmes when he fought Leon Spinks. He only fought him because he had no title to lose. Holmes beat Ray Mercer when he was 42... 4. Foreman said a lot of calculated "humble" things to make himself popular with fans. He was one of the smartest businessmen ever... 5. Good fights that don't happen mean one boxer is ducking the other, because good fights make money... 6. Nuclear war hasn't happened because it would be an unthinkable disaster for the human race -- but that doesn't mean one won't... 7. Monetary reasons are why fights happen - not why they don't happen. They usually don't happen because of fear.

Kalan wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:I think if you are a fair minded person, you might at least CONSIDER that the Quarry-Chuvalo fight was a possible anomaly.

Also you might CONSIDER that the Norton Quarry affair included two fighters at different points in their respective careers...peak wise.

But then a FAIR minded person, might also imagine that the Holmes Ali Affair took place at two different points in their careers as well. And take very little of meaning from it.

By the way....I don't believe you are quoting any Foreman list......but what you are doing is assuming that every fight Foreman did not engage in had some sort of meaning. And perhaps was on his list. The names I mentioned are about fighters he actually said he avoided. If he included those other names, could you point in what publication I might find that info?

Thanks in advance for your assured response on this.

I notice that you OFTEN speak of almost any fight that did NOT take place as having some hidden meaning. Have you noticed that?

Now granted some events that don't take place probably do have meaning....and they bubble up for conversation quite often. But you seem to deduce that nearly ALL fights that don't take place, have a meaning.

IN my minds eye....Sometimes.....opportunities just don't present themselves. And not every thing that does NOT happen has a particular meaning.

For example: The Nuclear war between France and Pakistan that has never happened, probably has little meaning that we can draw from it.


I suppose a fight I would have liked to have seen would be Saad vs Mustafa II. I believe it was booked, and simply fell through for some reason.
However...since the both signed up for it, I guess I can't assume that one avoided the other......it just simply did not take place for monetary reasons....

1. You consider any fight that doesn't go the way your biased mind says it should an anomaly... 2. It doesn't matter what stage of career Quarry was in. He had lousy fights during all stages... 3. Ali ducked Holmes when he fought Leon Spinks. He only fought him because he had no title to lose. Holmes beat Ray Mercer when he was 42... 4. Foreman said a lot of calculated "humble" things to make himself popular with fans. He was one of the smartest businessmen ever... 5. Good fights that don't happen mean one boxer is ducking the other, because good fights make money... 6. Nuclear war hasn't happened because it would be an unthinkable disaster for the human race -- but that doesn't mean one won't... 7. Monetary reasons are why fights happen - not why they don't happen. They usually don't happen because of fear.

I have been reading along and would like to ask both of you if you could give an example of: a fighter ducking a big money fight out of fear; and an example of a big fight not happening because of the money?

I think where I am going with this is that you really can't conclude either was cause for a non-fight. The two HW fights that jump to my mind are Tyson-Spinks and Patterson-Liston. Both seem to argue that fear won't stop a fight if the money is big enough. I can't seem to think of an example the other way, can either of you? (I am assuming that you both agree Patterson and Spinks both were scared; if I be wrong sorry for assuming.)

Top 100? Sure, I'd say so.

APerno wrote:I have been reading along and would like to ask both of you if you could give an example of: a fighter ducking a big money fight out of fear; and an example of a big fight not happening because of the money? I think where I am going with this is that you really can't conclude either was cause for a non-fight. The two HW fights that jump to my mind are Tyson-Spinks and Patterson-Liston. Both seem to argue that fear won't stop a fight if the money is big enough

Fighters ducking big money fights out of fear... Here's 10 examples out of 100's.

1. Cotto fighting Geale instead of Golovkin -- cherry-picking a punk who made a wimpish running performance for 3 rounds vs GGG and then quit.

2. Oscar De La Hoya fighting Luis Ramon Campas instead of a 154 Title Unification Fight with Winky Wright -- who had been calling Oscar out.

3. Muhammad Ali fighting Leon Spinks instead of Larry Holmes... After Spinks was stripped of the Heavyweight Title, Holmes won the title by beating Ken Norton... Ali still pretended Holmes didn't exist... He fought Spinks again and then retired - having no plans to fight Holmes until he needed money.

4. Patterson ignored Liston until President Kennedy said: "Patterson should have fought Sonny Liston instead of Tom McNeeley. Liston is the best Heavyweight challenger by far." Patterson finally gave Liston a title shot 9 months later.. but seemed scared to death as the fight approached.

5. Michael Spinks ignored Mike Tyson until his knees got so bad he was forced to retire. He had both knees wrapped like mummies when he cashed out against Mike Tyson... The fear Spinks displayed just prior to that fight was so palpable you could cut it with a knife.

6. Canelo fought 3 Middleweight Championship Fights -- NONE against GGG, which was the most anticipated fight in the world at the time

7. Billy Joe Saunders defended his title against some punk you never heard off... instead of fighting GGG

8. Jose Torres said, "I can't hear you" when reporters asked him when he was going to fight top challenger Bob Foster

9. Leo Santa Cruz.. Lee Selby.. Carl Frampton.. Abner Mares.. and Jesus Cuellar have NO plans to fight the best Featherweight, Gary Russell

10. Santa Cruz and Lee Selby refused to fight Vasyl Lomachenko -- but had no trouble defending their titles against ass-beaten chumps in cheap fights

Kalan wrote:

APerno wrote:I have been reading along and would like to ask both of you if you could give an example of: a fighter ducking a big money fight out of fear; and an example of a big fight not happening because of the money? I think where I am going with this is that you really can't conclude either was cause for a non-fight. The two HW fights that jump to my mind are Tyson-Spinks and Patterson-Liston. Both seem to argue that fear won't stop a fight if the money is big enough

Fighters ducking big money fights out of fear... Here's 10 examples out of 100's.

1. Cotto fighting Geale instead of Golovkin -- cherry-picking a punk who made a wimpish running performance for 3 rounds vs GGG and then quit.

2. Oscar De La Hoya fighting Luis Ramon Campas instead of a 154 Title Unification Fight with Winky Wright -- who had been calling Oscar out.

3. Muhammad Ali fighting Leon Spinks instead of Larry Holmes... After Spinks was stripped of the Heavyweight Title, Holmes won the title by beating Ken Norton... Ali still pretended Holmes didn't exist... He fought Spinks again and then retired - having no plans to fight Holmes until he needed money.

4. Patterson ignored Liston until President Kennedy said: "Patterson should have fought Sonny Liston instead of Tom McNeeley. Liston is the best Heavyweight challenger by far." Patterson finally gave Liston a title shot 9 months later.. but seemed scared to death as the fight approached.

5. Michael Spinks ignored Mike Tyson until his knees got so bad he was forced to retire. He had both knees wrapped like mummies when he cashed out against Mike Tyson... The fear Spinks displayed just prior to that fight was so palpable you could cut it with a knife.

6. Canelo fought 3 Middleweight Championship Fights -- NONE against GGG, which was the most anticipated fight in the world at the time

7. Billy Joe Saunders defended his title against some punk you never heard off... instead of fighting GGG

8. Jose Torres said, "I can't hear you" when reporters asked him when he was going to fight top challenger Bob Foster

9. Leo Santa Cruz.. Lee Selby.. Carl Frampton.. Abner Mares.. and Jesus Cuellar have NO plans to fight the best Featherweight, Gary Russell

10. Santa Cruz and Lee Selby refused to fight Vasyl Lomachenko -- but had no trouble defending their titles against ass-beaten chumps in cheap fights

-
Can't use Patterson or Spinks they eventually made good (besides it was Gus DeM(sp) that kept Patterson away from Liston' - Patterson had to leave Gus to take the Liston fight, which he did.) - The Joe Torres quote is funny, that certainly is 'ducking' alright. Same with Ali, no doubt he was picking and choosing easy marks; he was finished by then, so it might not be fair to judge his courage using that point in his career. - There is one question that needs to be asked: lets take De La Hoya for example, was he being offered the same money to fight Campas instead of Wright, if so you can't blame him, but if he took less money for the fight then your point is made. It is hard to know considering De La Hoya, he alone could carry a pay-per-view fight and didn't need Wright on the card, so why take the tough fight for the same money? Both he an Ali could likely have made the same money taking the easier fights, I would not considered that ducking.

APerno wrote:You can't use Patterson or Spinks they eventually made good (besides it was Gus DeM(sp) that kept Patterson away from Liston' - Patterson had to leave Gus to take the Liston fight, which he did.) - The Joe Torres quote is funny, that certainly is 'ducking' alright. Same with Ali, no doubt he was picking and choosing easy marks; he was finished by then, so it might not be fair to judge his courage using that point in his career. - There is one question that needs to be asked: lets take De La Hoya for example, was he being offered the same money to fight Campas instead of Wright, if so you can't blame him, but if he took less money for the fight then your point is made. It is hard to know considering De La Hoya, he alone could carry a pay-per-view fight and didn't need Wright on the card, so why take the tough fight for the same money? Both he an Ali could likely have made the same money taking the easier fights, I would not considered that ducking.

I CAN use Patterson AND Spinks because they didn't fight their most logical challenger in a timely fashion... If you wait years that's ducking... They were pretty much boxed into a corner when they finally took the fights.. Patterson had nowhere to go because of President Kennedy's comments -- and Spinks because he couldn't fight anymore 3rd rate challengers with the fans and public loudly screaming for him to fight Tyson and his knees were shot anyway.

De La Hoya would have made a much bigger PPV haul fighting the extremely formidable Wright (and probaby getting his ass kicked) than he made for fighting the ass-beaten Campas---who didn't have a chance in Hell and everybody knew it... Oscar was ducking.

The Ali-Holmes fight would have been bigger in 1978 than it was 32 months later.... More fans would have believe in Ali's chances to beat Holmes... Larry was unbeaten, and the only ATG boxer Ali ever faced.. I wanted to see the fight badly, but I was so angry when Ali came back after 2 years retirement and fought Holmes that I refused to watch it until months later.. I knew the fight was a fraudulent ripoff and Ali was only doing it for the money.. I wasn't anxious to see Ali get his head beaten in and I knew that battering an incompetent Ali wouldn't do Larry Holmes much good either. It wasn't a real fight. It made tremendous money for the promoters and that's why it was allowed to go ahead. People turned out for Louis-Charles too.

Beating Klitschko isn't going to do Joshua's reputation much good either -- but it's going to make AJ and Hearn a lot of money... The best Heavyweight of the time fighting a legend is always a box office smash... Half the fans expect the legend to win because that's what he did so often in the past.

Kalan wrote:

APerno wrote:You can't use Patterson or Spinks they eventually made good (besides it was Gus DeM(sp) that kept Patterson away from Liston' - Patterson had to leave Gus to take the Liston fight, which he did.) - The Joe Torres quote is funny, that certainly is 'ducking' alright. Same with Ali, no doubt he was picking and choosing easy marks; he was finished by then, so it might not be fair to judge his courage using that point in his career. - There is one question that needs to be asked: lets take De La Hoya for example, was he being offered the same money to fight Campas instead of Wright, if so you can't blame him, but if he took less money for the fight then your point is made. It is hard to know considering De La Hoya, he alone could carry a pay-per-view fight and didn't need Wright on the card, so why take the tough fight for the same money? Both he an Ali could likely have made the same money taking the easier fights, I would not considered that ducking.

I CAN use Patterson AND Spinks because they didn't fight their most logical challenger in a timely fashion... If you wait years that's ducking... They were pretty much boxed into a corner when they finally took the fights.. Patterson had nowhere to go because of President Kennedy's comments -- and Spinks because he couldn't fight anymore 3rd rate challengers with the fans and public loudly screaming for him to fight Tyson and his knees were shot anyway.

De La Hoya would have made a much bigger PPV haul fighting the extremely formidable Wright (and probaby getting his ass kicked) than he made for fighting the ass-beaten Campas---who didn't have a chance in Hell and everybody knew it... Oscar was ducking.

The Ali-Holmes fight would have been bigger in 1978 than it was 32 months later.... More fans would have believe in Ali's chances to beat Holmes... Larry was unbeaten, and the only ATG boxer Ali ever faced.. I wanted to see the fight badly, but I was so angry when Ali came back after 2 years retirement and fought Holmes that I refused to watch it until months later.. I knew the fight was a fraudulent ripoff and Ali was only doing it for the money.. I wasn't anxious to see Ali get his head beaten in and I knew that battering an incompetent Ali wouldn't do Larry Holmes much good either. It wasn't a real fight. It made tremendous money for the promoters and that's why it was allowed to go ahead. People turned out for Louis-Charles too.

Beating Klitschko isn't going to do Joshua's reputation much good either -- but it's going to make AJ and Hearn a lot of money... The best Heavyweight of the time fighting a legend is always a box office smash... Half the fans expect the legend to win because that's what he did so often in the past.

We can agree to disagree regarding Spinks and Patterson - can you share JFK's comments with me (or point me in the right direction: news conference; interview, speech ?) - would love to read them - never knew JFK was into the fights (but it makes sense, the time/being Irish)

I will continue to disagree with De la Hoya's situation, I argue Wright would have brought nothing appreciably more to the box office - me thinks you are thinking like a real fight fan; you would recognize the better (correct) fight, most just bought it to see De La Hoya. The Torres example reads better; Foster would have been Torres' best payday ever, not to have taken that fight screams lack of confidence.

The Ali-Holmes was sad to watch. That is an overused phrase so let me be literal, the Ali-Holmes fight was sad to watch.

Anthony Joshua: was stripped of the WBC belt (I guess); and now looks to add something called the WBA SUPER World Heavyweight belt. - I think it is good that he's fighting Klitschko, even if it is just a passing of the torch - do we really want to leave it to the sanctioning bodies?

BTW What the hell is a WBA SUPER WORLD Heavyweight champion, what is that; is there another guy walking around called the WBA Heavyweight champ as well? - Did they add a weight class or just change the name? I hate sanctioning bodies; I don't stay aware to what is happening with them.

APerno wrote:

Kalan wrote:

APerno wrote:You can't use Patterson or Spinks they eventually made good (besides it was Gus DeM(sp) that kept Patterson away from Liston' - Patterson had to leave Gus to take the Liston fight, which he did.) - The Joe Torres quote is funny, that certainly is 'ducking' alright. Same with Ali, no doubt he was picking and choosing easy marks; he was finished by then, so it might not be fair to judge his courage using that point in his career. - There is one question that needs to be asked: lets take De La Hoya for example, was he being offered the same money to fight Campas instead of Wright, if so you can't blame him, but if he took less money for the fight then your point is made. It is hard to know considering De La Hoya, he alone could carry a pay-per-view fight and didn't need Wright on the card, so why take the tough fight for the same money? Both he an Ali could likely have made the same money taking the easier fights, I would not considered that ducking.

I CAN use Patterson AND Spinks because they didn't fight their most logical challenger in a timely fashion... If you wait years that's ducking... They were pretty much boxed into a corner when they finally took the fights.. Patterson had nowhere to go because of President Kennedy's comments -- and Spinks because he couldn't fight anymore 3rd rate challengers with the fans and public loudly screaming for him to fight Tyson and his knees were shot anyway.

De La Hoya would have made a much bigger PPV haul fighting the extremely formidable Wright (and probaby getting his ass kicked) than he made for fighting the ass-beaten Campas---who didn't have a chance in Hell and everybody knew it... Oscar was ducking.

The Ali-Holmes fight would have been bigger in 1978 than it was 32 months later.... More fans would have believe in Ali's chances to beat Holmes... Larry was unbeaten, and the only ATG boxer Ali ever faced.. I wanted to see the fight badly, but I was so angry when Ali came back after 2 years retirement and fought Holmes that I refused to watch it until months later.. I knew the fight was a fraudulent ripoff and Ali was only doing it for the money.. I wasn't anxious to see Ali get his head beaten in and I knew that battering an incompetent Ali wouldn't do Larry Holmes much good either. It wasn't a real fight. It made tremendous money for the promoters and that's why it was allowed to go ahead. People turned out for Louis-Charles too.

Beating Klitschko isn't going to do Joshua's reputation much good either -- but it's going to make AJ and Hearn a lot of money... The best Heavyweight of the time fighting a legend is always a box office smash... Half the fans expect the legend to win because that's what he did so often in the past.

We can agree to disagree regarding Spinks and Patterson - can you share JFK's comments with me (or point me in the right direction: news conference; interview, speech ?) - would love to read them - never knew JFK was into the fights (but it makes sense, the time/being Irish)

I will continue to disagree with De la Hoya's situation, I argue Wright would have brought nothing appreciably more to the box office - me thinks you are thinking like a real fight fan; you would recognize the better (correct) fight, most just bought it to see De La Hoya. The Torres example reads better; Foster would have been Torres' best payday ever, not to have taken that fight screams lack of confidence.

The Ali-Holmes was sad to watch. That is an overused phrase so let me be literal, the Ali-Holmes fight was sad to watch.

Anthony Joshua: was stripped of the WBC belt (I guess); and now looks to add something called the WBA SUPER World Heavyweight belt. - I think it is good that he's fighting Klitschko, even if it is just a passing of the torch - do we really want to leave it to the sanctioning bodies?

BTW What the hell is a WBA SUPER WORLD Heavyweight champion, what is that; is there another guy walking around called the WBA Heavyweight champ as well? - Did they add a weight class or just change the name? I hate sanctioning bodies; I don't stay aware to what is happening with them.

Spinks fought Tyson because his knees were gone... Patterson fought Liston because of President Kennedy's comments... Patterson fought Tom McNeeley on the same night and TV bill that Liston fought Albert Westphal... President Kennedy watched the fights with friends and a couple reporters... He remarked that both fights were mismatches, and, "Floyd Patterson should have been fighting Sonny Liston. Liston is the best Heavyweight."

De La Hoya would have made much more money fighting a unification fight with the highly skilled Winky Wright than he made with Campas. But he would have suffered a bad defeat so he didn't do it... He knew that Hopkins was probably going to stop him, even at age 39... When he started to catch some heavy leather and started running, he checked out from a body shot... "AAAAAHHhhhhrrrrrggggghhh" and pounded the canvas with his glove for dramatic effect.