BoxRec

The sluggers round robin
3 interesting nicknames, 3 heavy handed dudes and not a lot of finesse

Marciano vs Dempsey
Dempsey vs Baer
Baer vs Marciano

Everyone would surely be a war and none will be going to the cards

How do we see it playing out?

Baer would go 0-2. He was not in the same class that they were. He was inconsistent. On a good day, it would be interesting for a while. On a bad day, he would lose badly.

Marciano-Dempsey would have been unpredictable. It might last a while; it might not. Either was capable of winning.

Marciano wins. I'm of the opinion Rocky is under rated nowadays. Dempsey possibly the most over rated fighter ever IMO. Bear gives Dempsey a very tough time in their fight but goes down in the mid to late rounds.

Agreed that Dempsey's resume is crazy overrated. That being said, he stops Marciano. They both stop Baer.

Marciano wins against both. Dempsey beats Baer.

Marciano was slightly underrated. No one will confuse Rocky with Wille Pep or Whitaker, but he wasn't as easy to hit as some thought. Good crouch, great power.

Did either Jack or Rocky ever face a puncher as big as Baer? I'd actually think not and if can find either he could win. In most cases though the two greats would take him down. He has a chance though. It's only really boxers that beat Baer in his prime. Standing toe to toe with him could be messy.

cfang wrote:Did either Jack or Rocky ever face a puncher as big as Baer? I'd actually think not and if can find either he could win. In most cases though the two greats would take him down. He has a chance though. It's only really boxers that beat Baer in his prime. Standing toe to toe with him could be messy.

Good point.

Dempsey knocks out both Baer and Marciano... He was too powerful a hitter for either of them.. Dempsey was very small but very fast and athletic in his prime -- and an absolute dynamite puncher.. For his size he might have been the best puncher ever, and somebody as slow as Marciano would be gone quickly.

But the Baer-Marciano matchup is extremely freaky.. Baer was a big guy and a tremendous absorber... He took everything the favored Max Schmeling threw and then knocked the hard punching German out... Baer easily absorbed Primo Carnera's best punches and with terrific right hands he smashed Carnera into the canvas... People tend to think of Carnera as a joke, but the Baer fight was Carnera's FIRST KO loss in 85 professional fights.. In his previous 3 fights to Baer, he beat Jack Sharkey and Tommy Loughran -- 2 men thought to be highly skilled boxers in their day.

Baer himself never came close to being stopped until after he lost the Heavyweight Title.. Fame and fortune got to Baer like few other boxers. He reveled in the attention of babes in particular. He was like a Heavyweight Kelly Pavlik. In the year between the Carnera and Braddock fights he made a lot of money in public appearances, partied it up, and deteriorated significantly. Baer said the only reason he ever fought was for money and fame. "After I knocked out Carnera, I received all the money and fame any kid could ever ask for. And I rode the adulation non-stop."

Baer was 6'2" X 210 for Carnera, with massively long arms and an unreal 84" reach... I know they have his reach listed as 81" on this site...but even then he'd have a 14" reach advantage on Rocky who's reach was 67" even if this site states it as 68"... Baer is not the type of fighter Al Weill and Charlie Goldman matched Marciano with.. In fact, Marciano never fought a prime big puncher with a tremendous size advantage.. Don't tell me Rex Layne, because he weighed 193 for Marciano and finished with a KO ratio of 49%.. Rocky was not necessarily a massive puncher.. He was matched very carefully and wore his small opponents down.. He took 9 rounds to get rid of Light Heavyweight Archie Moore and that tubby fat boy with a China-chin, Don Cockell.

I don't think Marciano gets Baer out -- and I think Baer gets Marciano out... Two guys swinging away and the much bigger and stronger man wins... I'll probably be the only person to pick Baer in this matchup... I was one of the few who said Foreman was going to murder the highly favored Frazier.

Kalan wrote:Dempsey knocks out both Baer and Marciano... He was too powerful a hitter for either of them.. Dempsey was very small but very fast and athletic in his prime -- and an absolute dynamite puncher.. For his size he might have been the best puncher ever, and somebody as slow as Marciano would be gone quickly.

But the Baer-Marciano matchup is extremely freaky.. Baer was a big guy and a tremendous absorber... He took everything the favored Max Schmeling threw and then knocked the hard punching German out... Baer easily absorbed Primo Carnera's best punches and with terrific right hands he smashed Carnera into the canvas... People tend to think of Carnera as a joke, but the Baer fight was Carnera's FIRST KO loss in 85 professional fights.. In his previous 3 fights to Baer, he beat Jack Sharkey and Tommy Loughran -- 2 men thought to be highly skilled boxers in their day.

Baer himself never came close to being stopped until after he lost the Heavyweight Title.. Fame and fortune got to Baer like few other boxers. He reveled in the attention of babes in particular. He was like a Heavyweight Kelly Pavlik. In the year between the Carnera and Braddock fights he made a lot of money in public appearances, partied it up, and deteriorated significantly. Baer said the only reason he ever fought was for money and fame. "After I knocked out Carnera, I received all the money and fame any kid could ever ask for. And I rode the adulation non-stop."

Baer was 6'2" X 210 for Carnera, with massively long arms and an unreal 84" reach... I know they have his reach listed as 81" on this site...but even then he'd have a 14" reach advantage on Rocky who's reach was 67" even if this site states it as 68"... Baer is not the type of fighter Al Weill and Charlie Goldman matched Marciano with.. In fact, Marciano never fought a prime big puncher with a tremendous size advantage.. Don't tell me Rex Layne, because he weighed 193 for Marciano and finished with a KO ratio of 49%.. Rocky was not necessarily a massive puncher.. He was matched very carefully and wore his small opponents down.. He took 9 rounds to get rid of Light Heavyweight Archie Moore and that tubby fat boy with a China-chin, Don Cockell.

I don't think Marciano gets Baer out -- and I think Baer gets Marciano out... Two guys swinging away and the much bigger and stronger man wins... I'll probably be the only person to pick Baer in this matchup... I was one of the few who said Foreman was going to murder the highly favored Frazier.

Well, you make a good case on this 3 way. And I tend to agree for the same reasons you point out.

Not sure Marciano was the creme puff you are trying to describe....but still.....I think the case holds water.

The idea that Baer was able to deal with Carnera's incoming is not all that big a deal, but dispatching him was noteworthy, though the Alp's Ambling was partially at the center of the many KD's. Along with Baer's barrage, I think the big guy hurt himself in one of his falls. That's a lot of lumber hittin' the sod.

Hold...on....not so fast........I just noticed something that's got my attention.


You are not typically calibrated to "forgive" issues that arise later in a fighters career and factor them in on a rational basis.

Often times you point to late career losses as key indicators of what said fighter is capable of, or not capable of.

You're giving Baer a pass on his later showings is not keeping with your core values of "once in your prime....always in your prime."


You are going to confuse the kids if you keep improving you logic in public.



By the way, postulating the idea of Baer having a chance with the Rock is going to move a few folks out of their comfort zone.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

cfang wrote:Did either Jack or Rocky ever face a puncher as big as Baer? I'd actually think not and if can find either he could win. In most cases though the two greats would take him down. He has a chance though. It's only really boxers that beat Baer in his prime. Standing toe to toe with him could be messy.

Good point.

I think that is a point worth considering as well. Both Dempsey and Marciano showed throughout their careers that they had very good chins. Did they have great chins? I guess we don't know for sure. Maybe Baer does have a puncher's chance.

On the flip side, Baer seemed to have a pretty good chin as well. When he did fight Louis, he got crushed. he was having hand problems, and probably could have give Louis more trouble. Still, it didn't look like his chin could stand up to a great puncher throwing a lot punches, such as both Dempsey and Marciano.

Baer did often telegraph his punches, which many opponents avoided and is one reason why Baer didn't connect often enough. A surprising amount of fighters went the distance with Baer. Dempsey and Marciano would be scoring on Baer more than viceversa.

Ultimately it would come down to toughness. Dempsey and Marciano were tougher than Baer.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

cfang wrote:Did either Jack or Rocky ever face a puncher as big as Baer? I'd actually think not and if can find either he could win. In most cases though the two greats would take him down. He has a chance though. It's only really boxers that beat Baer in his prime. Standing toe to toe with him could be messy.

Good point.

I think that is a point worth considering as well. Both Dempsey and Marciano showed throughout their careers that they had very good chins. Did they have great chins? I guess we don't know for sure. Maybe Baer does have a puncher's chance.

On the flip side, Baer seemed to have a pretty good chin as well. When he did fight Louis, he got crushed. he was having hand problems, and probably could have give Louis more trouble. Still, it didn't look like his chin could stand up to a great puncher throwing a lot punches, such as both Dempsey and Marciano.

Baer did often telegraph his punches, which many opponents avoided and is one reason why Baer didn't connect often enough. A surprising amount of fighters went the distance with Baer. Dempsey and Marciano would be scoring on Baer more than viceversa.

Ultimately it would come down to toughness. Dempsey and Marciano were tougher than Baer.

I wouldn't say that... That's like somebody saying Frazier was tougher than Foreman because Ali knocked Foreman out... You cannot draw that conclusion... Frazier couldn't put a dent in Foreman or reach him very well with any shot he possessed -- but Joe consistently reached Ali, especially with his left hook.. Baer knocked out Schmeling who went on to KO Joe Louis after Louis knocked out Baer.. It was boxers who bothered Baer -- like boxers bothered Foreman and Dempsey.. Now boxers didn't particularly bother either Frazier or Marciano -- but Rocky didn't fight any prime, big, powerful Heavyweights who could swing like a SOB and possibly lay him out.

And like I said before -- under normal circumstances a guy like Rocky stays on to fight Patterson.. Al Weill and Charlie Goldman didn't like that fight for Rocky.. Just like they didn't like Nino Valdes when he beat Charles for the number one contender spot.. and they also didn't like Bob Baker after he won an elimination fight with Valdes to face Marciano.. Weill said, "That was an elimination fight all right.. They eliminated each other."

It wasn't that Baker or Valdes were any good -- or had any real good skills.. They were big and strong and could hit a little, and those guys were cautious with their boy -- because Marciano did get hit and dropped by guys who weren't Heavyweights -- or didn't have the best punching power.

I draw the conclusion about toughness because it's the truth. Baer didn't even like the sport. He let opponents off the hook that he had hurt. He quit against Louis when he could have gotton up.

Uzcudun was far from a slick boxer and he beat Baer. Braddock and Farr weren't exactly slick. They weren't anywhere near as good as Marciano or Dempsey.

People have already said why the Patterson thing is crap. Marciano got knocked down twice in 49 fights. He got up immediately both times. Walcott and Moore could hit at least as hard as Baker and Valdes.

No they couldn't... Because they didn't have the size to match those 2 in power... They were more accurate and deceptive when they threw a punch maybe -- but extremely slow Abe Simon knocked Walcott out -- and the neophyte rookie, Leonard Marrow, canned Moore in the first round.

And I never said Baer would beat Dempsey... Marciano was so slow... And he never fought anyone big, tall, prime, and a big KO puncher.

Kalan wrote:No they couldn't... Because they didn't have the size to match those 2 in power... They were more accurate and deceptive when they threw a punch maybe -- but extremely slow Abe Simon knocked Walcott out -- and the neophyte rookie, Leonard Marrow, canned Moore in the first round.

Yes Baker and Valdes were bigger than Walcott and Moore. No they they didn't hit as hard. Baker was a weak puncher. Yes Walcott and Moore lost fights. Yes, they won a lot as well. Yes Valdes and Baker lost several as well.

Many fighters that you never heard of went the distance with Baer. Trust me, you don't have to go the database and look it it up and pretend that you knew this all along.

Guys you never heard of went the distance with Marciano too...

Some of the guys who went the distance with Rocky had been knocked out before and they were very small Heavyweights or Light Heavyweights.. The thing is, Rocky never fought anybody as big and tough as Max Baer in his life.. Baer was never close to being stopped until after he lost the Heavyweight Title, and in his 49th fight.. Rocky only fought 49 fights.. In his first 74 professional fights Baer was stopped only once by Joe Louis. Baer was gone by the Lou Nova fights. He lived by his chin and punching power and after 80 fights his chin was gone.

And size is a very tough factor for a small walk-in slugger to deal with.. Jimmy Young was shorter, smaller, and about 20 pounds lighter than Foreman, and a feather hitter. Young had been knocked out before, but he wasn't a walk-in slugger like Frazier. He pecked away at Foreman and nearly stopped him. Frazier had never been stopped before but he walked right into Foreman's wheelhouse. Marciano would be right in front of Baer, who was a much bigger and more powerful man.. Styles make fights, in case you never heard that.

Baer told an interviewer "I never wanted to be a boxer. I wanted to be glamorous like Jack Dempsey. For my first 40 fights I never felt anyone's punches. It felt like these guys were dusting my chin with talcum powder. But like water wearing down a rock, I knew with the Schmeling fight that my ability to wade through hard punches wasn't infinite and someday It would be over. I quit in the Louis fight so Nova was the only man to knock me out. I promised myself I would retire if anybody ever knocked me out. I didn't want to end up like most punch drunk pugs."

Some interesting comment, I knew this one would be tough to call. Every one could bang and would have a solid punchers chance at very least in any of thesesluggers

I'm going to throw in my tuppence worth, i think that:
Marciano beats Dempsey
Dempsey beats Baer
Marciano beats Baer

Marciano named king of the sluggers

I don't think Baer was quite as good as the other 2 but he was no mug. He was that bit bigger and bloody heavy handed so i wouldn't write him off. But I have to pick the oher 2 over him 7 or 8 times out of 10

The Dempsey vs Marciano fight was the toughest call.
Thought Dempsey was that little bit more gung ho (I know, Marciano was hardly the king of ring discipline) and Jack possibly made more mistakes.
Both guys were tough but I see Rocky edging it in the toughness and stamina stakes to find a late stoppage or edge a decision in a blood bath of a fight

Kalan wrote:Guys you never heard of went the distance with Marciano too...

Some of the guys who went the distance with Rocky had been knocked out before and they were very small Heavyweights or Light Heavyweights.. The thing is, Rocky never fought anybody as big and tough as Max Baer in his life.. Baer was never close to being stopped until after he lost the Heavyweight Title, and in his 49th fight.. Rocky only fought 49 fights.. In his first 74 professional fights Baer was stopped only once by Joe Louis. Baer was gone by the Lou Nova fights. He lived by his chin and punching power and after 80 fights his chin was gone.

And size is a very tough factor for a small walk-in slugger to deal with.. Jimmy Young was shorter, smaller, and about 20 pounds lighter than Foreman, and a feather hitter. Young had been knocked out before, but he wasn't a walk-in slugger like Frazier. He pecked away at Foreman and nearly stopped him. Frazier had never been stopped before but he walked right into Foreman's wheelhouse. Marciano would be right in front of Baer, who was a much bigger and more powerful man.. Styles make fights, in case you never heard that.

Baer told an interviewer "I never wanted to be a boxer. I wanted to be glamorous like Jack Dempsey. For my first 40 fights I never felt anyone's punches. It felt like these guys were dusting my chin with talcum powder. But like water wearing down a rock, I knew with the Schmeling fight that my ability to wade through hard punches wasn't infinite and someday It would be over. I quit in the Louis fight so Nova was the only man to knock me out. I promised myself I would retire if anybody ever knocked me out. I didn't want to end up like most punch drunk pugs."

Interesting that Baer would say that. Can you tell me the source of this?

The peak Jack Dempsey was pre-Willard... The Fred Fulton KO in 23 seconds was probably Dempsey at his best... Fulton won 20 straight fights after being blitzed by the Mauler -- and he was a bigger, taller, and harder punching than guys Marciano fought.

From the time Dempsey knocked out Bill Brennan in 6 and Fireman Flynn 1 -- to the time he knocked out Billy Miske for Miske's only KO loss in his 53 fight career -- Dempsey was a machine against any man who would trade with him -- and Marciano would trade with him.

Dempsey was very rich and an outrageous party hound after the Willard fight.. He took 2 years off after the Carpentier fight and 3 years off following the Firpo fight.. All Jack did was party, hang out, chase women, run with celebs, and live it up.. Marciano was a lot more disciplined, but prime for prime he could not match Dempsey.

Flump wrote:

Kalan wrote:Guys you never heard of went the distance with Marciano too...

Some of the guys who went the distance with Rocky had been knocked out before and they were very small Heavyweights or Light Heavyweights.. The thing is, Rocky never fought anybody as big and tough as Max Baer in his life.. Baer was never close to being stopped until after he lost the Heavyweight Title, and in his 49th fight.. Rocky only fought 49 fights.. In his first 74 professional fights Baer was stopped only once by Joe Louis. Baer was gone by the Lou Nova fights. He lived by his chin and punching power and after 80 fights his chin was gone.

And size is a very tough factor for a small walk-in slugger to deal with.. Jimmy Young was shorter, smaller, and about 20 pounds lighter than Foreman, and a feather hitter. Young had been knocked out before, but he wasn't a walk-in slugger like Frazier. He pecked away at Foreman and nearly stopped him. Frazier had never been stopped before but he walked right into Foreman's wheelhouse. Marciano would be right in front of Baer, who was a much bigger and more powerful man.. Styles make fights, in case you never heard that.

Baer told an interviewer "I never wanted to be a boxer. I wanted to be glamorous like Jack Dempsey. For my first 40 fights I never felt anyone's punches. It felt like these guys were dusting my chin with talcum powder. But like water wearing down a rock, I knew with the Schmeling fight that my ability to wade through hard punches wasn't infinite and someday It would be over. I quit in the Louis fight so Nova was the only man to knock me out. I promised myself I would retire if anybody ever knocked me out. I didn't want to end up like most punch drunk pugs."

Interesting that Baer would say that. Can you tell me the source of this?

I used to read Boxing magazines cover to cover when I was a kid... especially interviews... The things with this one, that stood out to me most, was Baer saying punches felt like his chin being dusted with talcum powder -- and that the strongest chin weakens gradually, like water wearing down a rock.

davie wrote:Some interesting comment, I knew this one would be tough to call. Every one could bang and would have a solid punchers chance at very least in any of thesesluggers

I'm going to throw in my tuppence worth, i think that:
Marciano beats Dempsey
Dempsey beats Baer
Marciano beats Baer

Marciano named king of the sluggers

I don't think Baer was quite as good as the other 2 but he was no mug. He was that bit bigger and bloody heavy handed so i wouldn't write him off. But I have to pick the oher 2 over him 7 or 8 times out of 10

The Dempsey vs Marciano fight was the toughest call.
Thought Dempsey was that little bit more gung ho (I know, Marciano was hardly the king of ring discipline) and Jack possibly made more mistakes.
Both guys were tough but I see Rocky edging it in the toughness and stamina stakes to find a late stoppage or edge a decision in a blood bath of a fight

That's pretty much how I see it.
Baer wasn't as tough as Dempsey and Marciano. He also didn't have their tenacity. He simply didn't throw as many punches; and he wasn't as good of a finisher. There are many ordinary fighters who went the distance against Baer than did vs Dempsey and especially Marciano. He also often telegraphed his punches.

Dempsey-Marciano is a tossup.

The ring deaths affected baer's killer instinct.

I don't see Marciano beating either of them... Too damned slow, short, small, and weak... Marci struggled to get chinny light heavyweights out of there

Boxing wasn't Marciano's favorite sport and he was only 9-4 as an amateur... Baseball was his sport and he was a catcher... But his right arm was too weak to throw out good runners at 2nd base... A catcher needs a Hell of an arm to make the big leagues.

If only Yogi Berra and Johnny Bench would have been boxers. Obviously they would have been awesome.