BoxRec

A kind of dual purpose thread this week.
1. Analyse the career of a man with a very interesting record and faced many top heavyweights
2. Contrast the performances of some of those greats against a tricky customer, who gave the best a real headache

Jimmy vs Foreman
https://youtu.be/u5ATJdvmM6o

Previous weeks bouts
Week 1 - Leonard/Hearns.- http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=207995
Week 2 - Olivarez/Castillo 1 - http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=208158
Week 3 - Emile Griffith vs Nino Benvenuti - http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=208339
Week 4 - Salvador Sanchez vs Danny Lopez - http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=208467
Week 5 - Joe Louis vs Max Schmeling - http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=208651
Week 6 - Henry Armstrong - http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=208877
Week 7 - Carlos Monzon - http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=209080
Week 8 - Legends of light fly weight -
http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=209294
Week 9 - Basillio/Gavilan - http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=209579


Main thread - http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... e#p4571725

Jimmy vs Norton
https://youtu.be/B87haPG_C9M

Jimmy vs Ali
https://youtu.be/B4psfN2P48U

I had hoped to put up the stoppage loss to Shavers, just to add a bit of much needed drama but I can't find either of their fights

davie wrote:I had hoped to put up the stoppage loss to Shavers, just to add a bit of much needed drama but I can't find either of their fights

I'm not sure if either one of their fights was filmed. If they were, then they're very rare & have been locked up tighter than a drum for decades because I've never seen so much as a clip of either one & I've been a diehard follower of the sport since I was 14 in 1976.
Actually, I can't recall ever seeing footage of Young prior to his bout with Ali. There must have been some, as I have a vague recollection of the network showing Young in action during the telecast before Ali-Young began, but I can't remember which fight(s) it was from. I have a vague notion of it being from Jimmy's first fight with Lyle or perhaps from his bout vs Jose Roman, but can't be sure.
I'd love to find a recording of the entire Ali-Young broadcast just to see, though. It would seem that they must have had some footage of him to show.

It's a funny thing with Jimmy Young. Back during the peak of his career, I wasn't a big fan of his. Probably because he spent a portion of it in competition with my favorite fighter of the day, Ken Norton for the #1 contender spot.
But, over the years since, I've become much more appreciative of him & he's become one of my favorite unsung contenders of the heavyweight division's best era. It's just too bad that his peak was so short lived, only spanning from about 1974 until 1977 with a brief rebound in 1981.
But, during that peak, he managed to beat or at the very least fight on even terms with the very best of the era in Earnie Shavers, Ron Lyle, Ali ( He really deserved to win their match ), Foreman & Ken Norton ( a razor-thin decision loss in a fight that could have gone either way that was retroactively recognized as being for the WBC title ).
It can be argued that had he been given those decisions in his championship bouts that he would be recognized as an all-time great simply on the success that he had during that three-year span. But, after his heartbreaking loss in the Norton fight, Young seemed to pack it in mentally. Showing up in mediocre shape & losing a close points loss to the unheralded Ozzie Ocasio. And, given the chance in a do-over that, had he won, would have likely resulted in a shot at the new WBC champion Larry Holmes, Jimmy lost in even more decisive fashion to Ocasio in front of a raucous crowd in Ocasio's native San Juan, Puerto Rico. Basically ending Young's run as a top contender.
After which, aside from a five-bout winning streak in 1981 against second & third tier contenders, Young became a journeyman fighter who lost nearly as many fights as he lost, going just 12-10-1 ( 1 NC ) the rest of his way until hanging up his gloves as a badly faded opponent in 1988.
Sadly, like so many fighters do, Jimmy died at the premature age of just 56 years old after suffering from pugilistic dementia in the final stages of his life just seven short years after retiring from the ring.

Jimmy Young vs George Foreman

I enjoyed this more than I thought I might.
I'd read plenty about it and expected one of two things. George Foreman lost it because he never got over the Ali defeat or Jimmy Young was all wrong for him and negated Foremans strengths.
The truth was somewhere in between. But what I did enjoy was that Young was not as negative as I expected, he threw his share of leather and scored plenty shots. I had him about 4 rounds ahead going into the 11th, he then dominated the 11th and could have stopped him in the 12th, scoring the knockdown.

Young defence was very good and he made Foreman miss plenty but also made him weary of throwing. He jabbed with authority, had a lot of nice feints to put Foreman off and his head movement was very good. He had that kind of economical head movement where he just did enough to make George miss by the narrowest of margins or if he did connect, he'd taken all the sting out of the punch.
And he came back with punches and this I think took George by surprise too, I don't think he expected to eat as many punches as he did. In the 7th round, probably Georges best, he must have though it was Zaire all over again as he almost punched himself out, with Young absorbing punishment on the ropes then firing back to wobble the tired Foreman.

But there is a limit to the credit for Young as Foreman did look a shadow of his destructive best. Yes Young was the wrong style for him but Foreman didn't come in with the aggression and violence I'm used to seeing from him in his first career.

My scorecard for the Ali fight from the post the scorecard thread

Muhammad Ali vs Jimmy Young

9 - 10
9 - 10
9 - 10
10 - 10
10 - 9
10 - 9
9 - 10
9 - 10
9 - 10
9 - 10
10 - 10
10 - 9
10 - 9
9 - 10
10 - 9

142 - 145 Young
Or 8-5-2 in rounds (I'm not entirely sure how the scoring of that time went, does that make it 70-67?).

Anyway, Ali was dismally poor in that fight and I could have scored one or two of the Ali rounds a draw or worse. I suspect I was actually too generous to Ali.
Young was keen and plucky, countered well and made Ali miss a lot. He was also brave at times when Ali tried to step up a gear (which wasn't nearly often enough) but no doubt about it, Ali was out of shape and looked uninterested.
The first thing I noticed was the shape he was in. And I've gone back and looked at his record, 230lbs was a career high, he was 6lbs heavier than he'd been 6 months earlier in Manila and came in 10lbs lighter only 1 month later against Dunn.

A poor show and the beginning of the end for The Greatest

I never really enjoyed the Young/Foreman fight. I thought it was a good performance from Young and a great last round but I remember when I watched it I was a bit dissapointed

handsofstone wrote:I never really enjoyed the Young/Foreman fight. I thought it was a good performance from Young and a great last round but I remember when I watched it I was a bit dissapointed

Thought it was a good fight, maybe I'm just easy pleased

Well you're not... It was a good performance by Young...

Howard Cosell misses all but the most obvious punches and he missed many of the quick punches Young threw, including the knockdown punch which was a chopping right... Young actually landed 3 consecutive rights that hurt Foreman, culminating in the short right that bounced Foreman off the ropes and onto the floor for a clean knockdown.. If Young had any killer instinct at all he could have gotten a KO.. He was pretty sure he had the fight won -- but you need to sew things up when you get somebody going like that.. He just wasn't killer and never expected to hurt Foreman.

Young even seemed a little surprised that George was stumbling around on rubber legs from those shots.. He never got too many big strong guys going.

Kalan wrote:Well you're not... It was a good performance by Young...

Howard Cosell misses all but the most obvious punches and he missed many of the quick punches Young threw, including the knockdown punch which was a chopping right... Young actually landed 3 consecutive rights that hurt Foreman, culminating in the short right that bounced Foreman off the ropes and onto the floor for a clean knockdown.. If Young had any killer instinct at all he could have gotten a KO.. He was pretty sure he had the fight won -- but you need to sew things up when you get somebody going like that.. He just wasn't killer and never expected to hurt Foreman.

Young even seemed a little surprised that George was stumbling around on rubber legs from those shots.. He never got too many big strong guys going.

I think I enjoyed it because I expected a far more negative performance from Young. A little bit more natural power and he would be talked about today in the same breath as the likes of Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Norton.
The guy had great skills and technical ability

1. Young
2. Even
3. Young
4. Young
5. Norton
6. Young
7. Norton
8. Young
9. Even
10. Young
11. Young
12. Young
13. Young
14. Young
15. Norton

147 - 140 Young.

I may have been slightly generous in my scoring there, but I cannot for the life of me fathom how Ken Norton won that fight.

Going on my scorecards in this thread alone, Young at his best should be talked about with the very best heavyweight fighters in history because I had him winning all 3

I started watching Young with an idea in my head of what to expect and I think I made the mistake of judging him according to those expectations.

Against Ali, I largely put his performance down to Ali being poor. And he was, but that never told the whole story

Against George I expected a defensive spoiling performance, it took me a few rounds to really realise, "wait a minute, this guys holding his own." But again I found myself not giving the performance the credit it deserve, largely because I was operating from the assumption that Big George must have been off the boil. No way could a guy of Youngs calibre out-class the great George Foreman (again operating under the assumption I knew what calibre Young was)

But after watching the Norton fight, I've at last came round. This guy was a bloody good fighter.
I was half way through the bout thinking, once again, Norton doesn't look himself here, he's not at his best.
And that's a real talent, making great fighters look poor.
Because Young fought an excellent fight in there against Ken. He's tactically very good, whether against big punchers like George Foreman, against Ken Nortons pressure or faced with Ali's boxing, he took the play away from them. His ring IQ is fantastic and his decision making under pressure is impressive, he looked comfortable and never out of his comfort zone against these greats.

So often you find yourself asking "did he win because he was good or did the other guy lose because he was poor" and I think with Young I was, to a certain extent, leaning far too far the wrong way.

He was a clever boxer but that's not what surprised me. He's a damn good fighter and gave as good as he got in every encounter and that's what I didn't expect

davie wrote:

Kalan wrote:Well you're not... It was a good performance by Young...

Howard Cosell misses all but the most obvious punches and he missed many of the quick punches Young threw, including the knockdown punch which was a chopping right... Young actually landed 3 consecutive rights that hurt Foreman, culminating in the short right that bounced Foreman off the ropes and onto the floor for a clean knockdown.. If Young had any killer instinct at all he could have gotten a KO.. He was pretty sure he had the fight won -- but you need to sew things up when you get somebody going like that.. He just wasn't killer and never expected to hurt Foreman.

Young even seemed a little surprised that George was stumbling around on rubber legs from those shots.. He never got too many big strong guys going.

I think I enjoyed it because I expected a far more negative performance from Young. A little bit more natural power and he would be talked about today in the same breath as the likes of Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Norton.
The guy had great skills and technical ability

I think Young had more power & snappier punches than generally given credit for.
He certainly had ( albeit an exhausted ) George Foreman going in the final round of their fight & stunned both Ron Lyle & Ken Norton at times in those encounters as well. So, I think if he had made some adjustments to his safety first style he could have had a far better KO ratio throughout his career than he did. But, he was a boxer first & would rather play the cutie over the distance than put himself at risk by going for the knockout.
The best example that I saw of what could have been was in his bout vs one Wendell Baily on the Holmes-Weaver undercard back in 1979.
Baily was considered an up & coming prospect at the time whose only loss was a close split decision loss over ten rounds to fellow unbeaten prospect Michael Dokes. The first two rounds featured Baily as the aggressor & Young fighting off his back foot as usual, but in the third, Young badly rocked Baily with a right-hand counter & turned uncharacteristically aggressive, finishing his cornered opponent with a vicious barrage.

sweetviolenturge wrote:

davie wrote:

Kalan wrote:Well you're not... It was a good performance by Young...

Howard Cosell misses all but the most obvious punches and he missed many of the quick punches Young threw, including the knockdown punch which was a chopping right... Young actually landed 3 consecutive rights that hurt Foreman, culminating in the short right that bounced Foreman off the ropes and onto the floor for a clean knockdown.. If Young had any killer instinct at all he could have gotten a KO.. He was pretty sure he had the fight won -- but you need to sew things up when you get somebody going like that.. He just wasn't killer and never expected to hurt Foreman.

Young even seemed a little surprised that George was stumbling around on rubber legs from those shots.. He never got too many big strong guys going.

I think I enjoyed it because I expected a far more negative performance from Young. A little bit more natural power and he would be talked about today in the same breath as the likes of Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Norton.
The guy had great skills and technical ability

I think Young had more power & snappier punches than generally given credit for.
He certainly had ( albeit an exhausted ) George Foreman going in the final round of their fight & stunned both Ron Lyle & Ken Norton at times in those encounters as well. So, I think if he had made some adjustments to his safety first style he could have had a far better KO ratio throughout his career than he did. But, he was a boxer first & would rather play the cutie over the distance than put himself at risk by going for the knockout.
The best example that I saw of what could have been was in his bout vs one Wendell Baily on the Holmes-Weaver undercard back in 1979.
Baily was considered an up & coming prospect at the time whose only loss was a close split decision loss over ten rounds to fellow unbeaten prospect Michael Dokes. The first two rounds featured Baily as the aggressor & Young fighting off his back foot as usual, but in the third, Young badly rocked Baily with a right-hand counter & turned uncharacteristically aggressive, finishing his cornered opponent with a vicious barrage.

I'll have to give that a watch.

davie wrote: I was half way through the bout thinking, once again, Norton doesn't look himself here, he's not at his best.
And that's a real talent, making great fighters look poor.
Because Young fought an excellent fight in there against Ken. He's tactically very good, whether against big punchers like George Foreman, against Ken Nortons pressure or faced with Ali's boxing, he took the play away from them. His ring IQ is fantastic and his decision making under pressure is impressive, he looked comfortable and never out of his comfort zone against these greats.

good points

davie wrote:

Kalan wrote:Well you're not... It was a good performance by Young...

Howard Cosell misses all but the most obvious punches and he missed many of the quick punches Young threw, including the knockdown punch which was a chopping right... Young actually landed 3 consecutive rights that hurt Foreman, culminating in the short right that bounced Foreman off the ropes and onto the floor for a clean knockdown.. If Young had any killer instinct at all he could have gotten a KO.. He was pretty sure he had the fight won -- but you need to sew things up when you get somebody going like that.. He just wasn't killer and never expected to hurt Foreman.

Young even seemed a little surprised that George was stumbling around on rubber legs from those shots.. He never got too many big strong guys going.

I think I enjoyed it because I expected a far more negative performance from Young. A little bit more natural power and he would be talked about today in the same breath as the likes of Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Norton.
The guy had great skills and technical ability

Young fell off after the Foreman fight -- losing 3 of his next 4, including 2 losses to green cruiserweight Ossie Ocasio... What Young lacked was the work ethic.. That's what kills so many naturally talented fighters. Foreman took 10 years off after this fight -- which for an athlete of his talents was insane.

So I look at this fight a little differently in that Foreman could have easily won this fight if he was as sharp and quick as he was for the 1st Frazier fight... A dozen pounds can make the difference between being very slow and sloppy and very fast and sharp... If you're weighing 217 for the right reasons that is---bearing in mind that Heavyweights don't have to make weight so they need extra discipline.. You could weigh a ripped 217 for one fight and a fat 250 for the next.. You still have to step on a scale but the weight differential is immaterial do you being allowed to fight for a living.

It's NOT the weight, but WHY did you weigh so much less for this particular fight???.. Is it because you stopped eating??? That's not good... Is it because of the intensity and duration of your training??? If that's the reason you looked so ripped and powerful, that also made the difference in your sharpness and endurance.. There's such a thing as over-training.. You can't leap into an insane training regimen without building up to it.. Just like you can't to 30 pullups without doing them for years, you can't run 5 miles in 30 minutes without pushing hard if you haven't been running consistently for years..

If you blow up your poundage by overeating, your endurance suffers if you start fasting instead of training it off. Foreman stayed pretty busy from the time he turned pro to the time he fought Frazier. That's a great help because training hard is a good habit, and getting out of shape due to long layoffs between fights, once you win a World Title, is a bad habit. You have to eat sensibly and do maintenance work.

Top trainers say stuff like this all the time, "There's no reason in the world for a good fighter to get tired in a 12 round fight. If you're a good boxer with decent experience, and you trained well? You should be able to throw 1200 punches---and you'll never throw that many. You get to rest every 3 minutes anyway. So if you get tired??? ... I'm sorry baby, you either aren't living right, you can't box very well, or you didn't train right."

davie wrote:A kind of dual purpose thread this week.
1. Analyse the career of a man with a very interesting record and faced many top heavyweights
2. Contrast the performances of some of those greats against a tricky customer, who gave the best a real headache

Jimmy vs Foreman
https://youtu.be/u5ATJdvmM6o

Good thread about a truly underrated fighter

Tomasino wrote:

davie wrote:A kind of dual purpose thread this week.
1. Analyse the career of a man with a very interesting record and faced many top heavyweights
2. Contrast the performances of some of those greats against a tricky customer, who gave the best a real headache

Jimmy vs Foreman
https://youtu.be/u5ATJdvmM6o

Good thread about a truly underrated fighter

I've only just realised how under-rated he truly was.

This is why i like doing these, it's an education for myself.
Horse stated that when he started the same thing on the British forum, it was a self-confessed lack of historical knowledge that inspired it.
I've been coming on this forum for the last couple of years for the exact same reason and this why I enjoy doing these, I very seldom pick content that I know a lot about.
And when you stumble upon a gem like this guy, who was very unfortunate not to have a proper ATG CV, then you learn something. And then after watching the fights I'll often go away and read up on the fighter too, which is how I now know he was also unfortunate to pick up a draw in his second fight with Shavers for instance

I've read various accounts about him on here, usually in threads about Ali or Foreman of course. And I realised he was hard done by but only by digging into it have I realised how good he was.
2 wins over Lyle, a win over Foreman and he should have a win over Shavers, Ali and Norton. From 74 - 77, this guy has a record that should stand up to any in heavyweight history. And he didn't do it with Ali's speed, Foremans power or Joe Fraziers engine.
He did it with boxing talent

I was always fascinated at how a Young vs Holmes match would have turned out in 1977....the timeline would have been right....interesting.
Young was only stopped once, against Shavers, except for his cut eye bout with Cooney. Remarkable defensive talent...

evrenb wrote:I was always fascinated at how a Young vs Holmes match would have turned out in 1977....the timeline would have been right....interesting.
Young was only stopped once, against Shavers, except for his cut eye bout with Cooney. Remarkable defensive talent...

I would have favoured Holmes

But then prior to watching these 3 I'd have favoured Ali, Foreman and Norton

He looked great against Norton and Foreman. The Young-Norton fight is one of the most underrated fights of all time. Seldom gets talked about. Young also looked great against Lyle. He has one of the most deceiving win/loss records ever.

davie wrote:

evrenb wrote:I was always fascinated at how a Young vs Holmes match would have turned out in 1977....the timeline would have been right....interesting.
Young was only stopped once, against Shavers, except for his cut eye bout with Cooney. Remarkable defensive talent...

I would have favoured Holmes

But then prior to watching these 3 I'd have favoured Ali, Foreman and Norton

Cooney used his height and size to rip Young with everything.. Jabs, hooks, rights...it was pretty much a non-stop barrage for 4 rounds.. I always thought Cooney was poorly conditioned, looked really soft, and lacked strength in his arms and legs.. He needed a strength trainer and balance speed, and coordination work to bring up his athleticism.. He was a natural puncher.. Wilder was really bad in all areas but they work with him on everything, and with his height, range, and power he's tough to beat right now. Cooney beat the crap out of Young and that was his best fight. He actually avoided a few punches.

davie wrote:

evrenb wrote:I was always fascinated at how a Young vs Holmes match would have turned out in 1977....the timeline would have been right....interesting.
Young was only stopped once, against Shavers, except for his cut eye bout with Cooney. Remarkable defensive talent...

I would have favoured Holmes

But then prior to watching these 3 I'd have favoured Ali, Foreman and Norton

Had a properly trained & motivated Jimmy Young shown up for the Ocasio fight on the undercard of Holmes-Norton, there's little doubt that he's have beaten him & gone onto to challenge Holmes in either Holme's first or second title defense & that IMO would have been a thing to behold. While in retrospect, given how their respective careers played out, it's easy to say that Holmes would have won. I think that the fight could have been a toss up.
Holmes frequently had difficulties with opponents who could box & match jabs with him ( ala Carl Williams, Tim Witherspoon, Snipes, Michael Spinks & even Mo Harris ). And he wasn't particularly adept when having to take the lead in fights, which Young would have likely made him do had they met.
So, had the Jimmy Young that fought Norton been able to retain that drive, fitness & focus for just a little bit longer, we may have seen yet another classic, close fight between two of the best of that era.
Unfortunately, however, Young joined a group of fighters that included Bernardo Mercado & James "Quick" Tillis who were frequently penciled in as potential title challengers for Holmes in the late '70s-early '80s, but who always managed to suffer an untimely loss that would take them out of contention. For Young, those losses were to Ocasio, Michael Dokes & Greg Page. After which he faded into journeyman status.

Imagine Young had been credited with the wins he should have got then went on to out-box Holmes?

How different the discussion would be today