BoxRec

one is, who fought the best opposition, who had the best record and 2 who at his very peak best, was the most complet boxer ever seen!

1) record. surely is sugar ray robinson or henry armstrong. they had so many fight and sure, they fought a lot of sparring partners, but they sure as hell also had lots of tough fights against high quality opponents. maybe manny, cause his record is sick, beating mexican legends barrera, morales, marquez and than his winning streak when he was prime tko and ko was his nickname back than, at least for me. also climbing so many weight classes. so in terms of record the GOAT is sugar.

2) complete boxer. that one is easier. i remember watching a interview of kellerman. he said, "when floyd used to be prime, back than, floyd was in the top 5 p4p, maybe top 3, but everybody had 1 boxer at the top and that was jones. no one would argue that prime jones looked more impressiv than prime floyd, that wasnt a discussion, prime jones was viewed as the best boxer p4p, maybe even ever." and thats exactly what i am sayn, at his very best there are only 2 boxers who come to my mind that could earn the spot as GOAT and thats a 90's Jones or a 49 Sugar. end.

Peak versus lifetime performance. Some fighters can look damn near supreme on one given night (Tyson v Spinks) and then tail off dramatically. Some never got the chance to establish long careers (Stevenson - amateurs only, Valero, Pirog etc).
Then there's that legion of fighters who could have been contenders (Errol Christie, Roy Gumbs etc).

The true measure of greatness must be a mixture of both. Lomachenkos and Robinsons amateur records are staggering. In this time they would have met every style conceivable, but currently Walker Smith has the vastly superior pro record.

What about innovation? (Ali, Mayweather, Curry etc).

Then there's bravery. They are all brave but they didn't all face Liston, Williams, Frazier, Foreman and Shavers...

Thomastearns wrote: Lomachenkos and Robinsons amateur records are staggering. In this time they would have met every style conceivable, but currently Walker Smith has the vastly superior pro record.

But, to be fair, I highly doubt any modern boxer will ever come anywhere near the pro record Robinson had.

I doesn't really matter to me how many guys you beat who you wouldn't hire for sparring partners -- just to pad up your record... Jimmy Wilde was even worse at this than Robinson was because Wilde wouldn't fight anybody who could fight... He only wanted all wins until his last couple of fights.

What matters more to me is: What was your record in World Title fights??? -- because it's harder to fight oft beaten cans in actual World Title Fights...

Robinson's record in World Middleweight Title Defenses was 3-3 with 2 KO wins... He was beaten by Basilio, Fullmer, and Turpin - not super skilled guys

Golovkin's record in World Middleweight Title Defenses is 17-0 with 17 KO wins... Nobody's come close to beating him thus far -- they're all running.

Floyd is possibly TBE if you're matching records -- because he beat more World Champions than Robinson, Leonard, Toney, Marciano, Ali, Duran, Jones or anyone... and he had better skills then them... Roy was flattened by Antonio Tarver and Glen Johnson who were both older than Roy... Roy was very stiff through the shoulders and an easy target for a tall southpaw with outstanding boxing and punching skills - like Tarver. AT plowed Roy and Glen iced him.

Harry Greb has the most impressive record of all the ATG's. The zero footage is the only problem when discussing how great he was. His record was phenomenal. He beat 13 hall of fame inductees while mostly being hugely outweighed.

As for Mayweather's record for beating the most world champions. Well you have to remember the era he competed in is the era of multiple weight divisions and multiple trinkets resulting in a shit load of paper champions. It's not really that impressive. I bet some of the boxers Robinson beat in warm up fights that some posters on here would class as bums could win a title in this era.

The most complete boxers we have extensive footage of are Leonard and Duran imo but a prime Robinson would probably top them if there was enough footage.

DareTBG wrote:Harry Greb has the most impressive record of all the ATG's. The zero footage is the only problem when discussing how great he was. His record was phenomenal. He beat 13 hall of fame inductees while mostly being hugely outweighed.

As for Mayweather's record for beating the most world champions. Well you have to remember the era he competed in is the era of multiple weight divisions and multiple trinkets resulting in a poo load of paper champions. It's not really that impressive. I bet some of the boxers Robinson beat in warm up fights that some posters on here would class as bums could win a title in this era.

The most complete boxers we have extensive footage of are Leonard and Duran imo but a prime Robinson would probably top them if there was enough footage.

how can duran be amongs the most complet boxers (in your top 3, since you talk about duran, leoanrd and robinson) when duran cant handle a defensive running master like leonard, where in the second fight duran was still in his prime and could do nothing to leonard. he would have the same problem in a p4p sense against athletic defensive runners like floyd, pernell or jones like he had against leonard, he would lose against all.

there is footage of greb training and looks slow and sluggish, good for back than, but for todays standards not very impressiv. there is enough footage of robinson to see how good he was. like dougie fisher ones told me, robinson had it all, athleticsm like jones, power like tito and speed like mosley.

Jip wrote:

DareTBG wrote:Harry Greb has the most impressive record of all the ATG's. The zero footage is the only problem when discussing how great he was. His record was phenomenal. He beat 13 hall of fame inductees while mostly being hugely outweighed.

As for Mayweather's record for beating the most world champions. Well you have to remember the era he competed in is the era of multiple weight divisions and multiple trinkets resulting in a poo load of paper champions. It's not really that impressive. I bet some of the boxers Robinson beat in warm up fights that some posters on here would class as bums could win a title in this era.

The most complete boxers we have extensive footage of are Leonard and Duran imo but a prime Robinson would probably top them if there was enough footage.

how can duran be amongs the most complet boxers (in your top 3, since you talk about duran, leoanrd and robinson) when duran cant handle a defensive running master like leonard, where in the second fight duran was still in his prime and could do nothing to leonard. he would have the same problem in a p4p sense against athletic defensive runners like floyd, pernell or jones like he had against leonard, he would lose against all.

there is footage of greb training and looks slow and sluggish, good for back than, but for todays standards not very impressiv. there is enough footage of robinson to see how good he was. like dougie fisher ones told me, robinson had it all, athleticsm like jones, power like tito and speed like mosley.

Because Duran at his natural weight (lightweight) and in his prime never had trouble with defensive boxers or runners as you call them. Leonard fought the best version of post prime Duran in the first fight. After Montreal Duran made a shit tone of money and became an undisciplined party animal that often went into fights out of shape like he did against Leonard in the second fight. You should know that Leonard and his team knew Duran was fat and partying like feck so they offered him millions of Dollars and convinced him to sign for the second fight to take place in six weeks knowing Duran would spend most of his camp cutting weight which would inevitably effect his performance come fight night. They devised their hit run and frustrate game plan around the fact Duran wouldnt be the animal he was in Montreal. Leonard openly and freely admits to all of it.
Duran at his best was a complete fighting machine that could box at any range. No one integrated offence and defence with the speed and fluidity of peak Roberto. Great offence, great defence, slick as hell, speed, footwork, power, strength, iron jaw, ferocity, intelligence, best array of faints the sports has ever seen, phenominal inside fighter, great counter puncher. The list is endless with Duran. And to call Leonard just an athletic runner is embarrassing boxing knowledge. Leonard was a complete boxer and mostly very offensive minded. I find it amusing people have this one dimensional idea of Leonard due to the hit run and frustrate tactics he employed against party ridden Duran in the second fight.

And Duran would not lose to Floyd at any weight they chose to fight if Duran trained and turned up focussed and in shape. The pathetic version of Duran who showed up against Kirkland Laing would get tooled by Mayweather. There's other versions of Duran above lightweight that Floyd would beat due to Duran's partying and training issues. Floyd never had that trouble he was always in tip top shape but was prone to poor performances against pressure fighters who couldn't lace even an out of shape Duran's gloves. The version of Floyd who fought Castillo in both fights would lose big to lightweight Duran. The Floyd who struggled with B class Maidana would have his ass pushed in by Montreal Duran.

Pea vs lightweight Duran is a great fight. I would edge Duran in that one but I'm not sure. I strongly favour Duran to beat Mayweather at lightweight because Mayweather can be pinned to the ropes where he's forced to shell up and roll punches. Duran would absolutely have the foot work/speed and faints to pin Floyd to the ropes where he would torture him. Pea on the other hand is like a slippery eel who does not get pinned to the ropes easily. Duran would struggle much harder against Pea than Mayweather at lightweight.

RJJ against Duran could only happen at middleweight. Durans best performances at middleweight was against Hagler and Barkley. Duran might have been older slower and fighting much bigger men at middleweight but prime Hags and Barkley had styles that Duran thrives against. Duran loves fighters who come to fight because he's so intelligent and slick in that area. RJJ would be totally different though. He would pick the older, slower and smaller Duran off at range and do a number on him. Likely stopping him mid rounds. If they were same size, same weight and in equal primes Duran would absolutely crush RJJ.

I've seen those Greb clips and I admit he looks a bit weird. His resume can't be denied though. His resume is remarkable. Gene Tunney looks great on film and Greb beat him even though he was hugely outweighed. I still have Robinson as the GOAT even though I have to admit Grebs resume is greater. It's subjective.

Kalan wrote:I doesn't really matter to me how many guys you beat who you wouldn't hire for sparring partners -- just to pad up your record... Jimmy Wilde was even worse at this than Robinson was because Wilde wouldn't fight anybody who could fight... He only wanted all wins until his last couple of fights.

What matters more to me is: What was your record in World Title fights??? -- because it's harder to fight oft beaten cans in actual World Title Fights...

Robinson's record in World Middleweight Title Defenses was 3-3 with 2 KO wins... He was beaten by Basilio, Fullmer, and Turpin - not super skilled guys

Golovkin's record in World Middleweight Title Defenses is 17-0 with 17 KO wins... Nobody's come close to beating him thus far -- they're all running.

Floyd is possibly TBE if you're matching records -- because he beat more World Champions than Robinson, Leonard, Toney, Marciano, Ali, Duran, Jones or anyone... and he had better skills then them... Roy was flattened by Antonio Tarver and Glen Johnson who were both older than Roy... Roy was very stiff through the shoulders and an easy target for a tall southpaw with outstanding boxing and punching skills - like Tarver. AT plowed Roy and Glen iced him.

To be fair, Mayweather fought in an era when you could become a 'world' champion boxer by opening a packet of Rice Krispies.

DareTBG wrote:

Jip wrote:

DareTBG wrote:Harry Greb has the most impressive record of all the ATG's. The zero footage is the only problem when discussing how great he was. His record was phenomenal. He beat 13 hall of fame inductees while mostly being hugely outweighed.

As for Mayweather's record for beating the most world champions. Well you have to remember the era he competed in is the era of multiple weight divisions and multiple trinkets resulting in a poo load of paper champions. It's not really that impressive. I bet some of the boxers Robinson beat in warm up fights that some posters on here would class as bums could win a title in this era.

The most complete boxers we have extensive footage of are Leonard and Duran imo but a prime Robinson would probably top them if there was enough footage.

how can duran be amongs the most complet boxers (in your top 3, since you talk about duran, leoanrd and robinson) when duran cant handle a defensive running master like leonard, where in the second fight duran was still in his prime and could do nothing to leonard. he would have the same problem in a p4p sense against athletic defensive runners like floyd, pernell or jones like he had against leonard, he would lose against all.

there is footage of greb training and looks slow and sluggish, good for back than, but for todays standards not very impressiv. there is enough footage of robinson to see how good he was. like dougie fisher ones told me, robinson had it all, athleticsm like jones, power like tito and speed like mosley.

Because Duran at his natural weight (lightweight) and in his prime never had trouble with defensive boxers or runners as you call them. Leonard fought the best version of post prime Duran in the first fight. After Montreal Duran made a poo tone of money and became an undisciplined party animal that often went into fights out of shape like he did against Leonard in the second fight. You should know that Leonard and his team knew Duran was fat and partying like feck so they offered him millions of Dollars and convinced him to sign for the second fight to take place in six weeks knowing Duran would spend most of his camp cutting weight which would inevitably effect his performance come fight night. They devised their hit run and frustrate game plan around the fact Duran wouldnt be the animal he was in Montreal. Leonard openly and freely admits to all of it.
Duran at his best was a complete fighting machine that could box at any range. No one integrated offence and defence with the speed and fluidity of peak Roberto. Great offence, great defence, slick as hell, speed, footwork, power, strength, iron jaw, ferocity, intelligence, best array of faints the sports has ever seen, phenominal inside fighter, great counter puncher. The list is endless with Duran. And to call Leonard just an athletic runner is embarrassing boxing knowledge. Leonard was a complete boxer and mostly very offensive minded. I find it amusing people have this one dimensional idea of Leonard due to the hit run and frustrate tactics he employed against party ridden Duran in the second fight.

And Duran would not lose to Floyd at any weight they chose to fight if Duran trained and turned up focussed and in shape. The pathetic version of Duran who showed up against Kirkland Laing would get tooled by Mayweather. There's other versions of Duran above lightweight that Floyd would beat due to Duran's partying and training issues. Floyd never had that trouble he was always in tip top shape but was prone to poor performances against pressure fighters who couldn't lace even an out of shape Duran's gloves. The version of Floyd who fought Castillo in both fights would lose big to lightweight Duran. The Floyd who struggled with B class Maidana would have his ass pushed in by Montreal Duran.

Pea vs lightweight Duran is a great fight. I would edge Duran in that one but I'm not sure. I strongly favour Duran to beat Mayweather at lightweight because Mayweather can be pinned to the ropes where he's forced to shell up and roll punches. Duran would absolutely have the foot work/speed and faints to pin Floyd to the ropes where he would torture him. Pea on the other hand is like a slippery eel who does not get pinned to the ropes easily. Duran would struggle much harder against Pea than Mayweather at lightweight.

RJJ against Duran could only happen at middleweight. Durans best performances at middleweight was against Hagler and Barkley. Duran might have been older slower and fighting much bigger men at middleweight but prime Hags and Barkley had styles that Duran thrives against. Duran loves fighters who come to fight because he's so intelligent and slick in that area. RJJ would be totally different though. He would pick the older, slower and smaller Duran off at range and do a number on him. Likely stopping him mid rounds. If they were same size, same weight and in equal primes Duran would absolutely crush RJJ.

I've seen those Greb clips and I admit he looks a bit weird. His resume can't be denied though. His resume is remarkable. Gene Tunney looks great on film and Greb beat him even though he was hugely outweighed. I still have Robinson as the GOAT even though I have to admit Grebs resume is greater. It's subjective.

duran lost to leonard 2 because he hated the running, the moving, the footwork, the footspeed. that were the reasons, not that duran was past prime.

in the first fight, leonard tried to box how duran likes to box. mano a mano, a fight. he lost. the same way floyd would have lost would floyd had fought canelo in a brawl fight. but than leonard did, what floyd did to the stronger canelo, moving, sticking, running etc. the rest you know what happened.

nobody crushes prime jones. fastes hands, most athletic, best reflexes, nobody touched a 90 jones and made future atg look like sparring partner...X..toney etc.

the floyd that sruggled with b+ maidana was also past prime and the trues is, styles make fight and anybody at some point struggled against b class.

prime jones got dropped by de valle

prime ali got knocked down by this german dude

pac lost when he was 17

hopkins lost his 1 pro fight

and prime duran lost to esteban

nostalgia is a heck of a drug

Jip wrote:

DareTBG wrote:

Jip wrote:

how can duran be amongs the most complet boxers (in your top 3, since you talk about duran, leoanrd and robinson) when duran cant handle a defensive running master like leonard, where in the second fight duran was still in his prime and could do nothing to leonard. he would have the same problem in a p4p sense against athletic defensive runners like floyd, pernell or jones like he had against leonard, he would lose against all.

there is footage of greb training and looks slow and sluggish, good for back than, but for todays standards not very impressiv. there is enough footage of robinson to see how good he was. like dougie fisher ones told me, robinson had it all, athleticsm like jones, power like tito and speed like mosley.

Because Duran at his natural weight (lightweight) and in his prime never had trouble with defensive boxers or runners as you call them. Leonard fought the best version of post prime Duran in the first fight. After Montreal Duran made a poo tone of money and became an undisciplined party animal that often went into fights out of shape like he did against Leonard in the second fight. You should know that Leonard and his team knew Duran was fat and partying like feck so they offered him millions of Dollars and convinced him to sign for the second fight to take place in six weeks knowing Duran would spend most of his camp cutting weight which would inevitably effect his performance come fight night. They devised their hit run and frustrate game plan around the fact Duran wouldnt be the animal he was in Montreal. Leonard openly and freely admits to all of it.
Duran at his best was a complete fighting machine that could box at any range. No one integrated offence and defence with the speed and fluidity of peak Roberto. Great offence, great defence, slick as hell, speed, footwork, power, strength, iron jaw, ferocity, intelligence, best array of faints the sports has ever seen, phenominal inside fighter, great counter puncher. The list is endless with Duran. And to call Leonard just an athletic runner is embarrassing boxing knowledge. Leonard was a complete boxer and mostly very offensive minded. I find it amusing people have this one dimensional idea of Leonard due to the hit run and frustrate tactics he employed against party ridden Duran in the second fight.

And Duran would not lose to Floyd at any weight they chose to fight if Duran trained and turned up focussed and in shape. The pathetic version of Duran who showed up against Kirkland Laing would get tooled by Mayweather. There's other versions of Duran above lightweight that Floyd would beat due to Duran's partying and training issues. Floyd never had that trouble he was always in tip top shape but was prone to poor performances against pressure fighters who couldn't lace even an out of shape Duran's gloves. The version of Floyd who fought Castillo in both fights would lose big to lightweight Duran. The Floyd who struggled with B class Maidana would have his ass pushed in by Montreal Duran.

Pea vs lightweight Duran is a great fight. I would edge Duran in that one but I'm not sure. I strongly favour Duran to beat Mayweather at lightweight because Mayweather can be pinned to the ropes where he's forced to shell up and roll punches. Duran would absolutely have the foot work/speed and faints to pin Floyd to the ropes where he would torture him. Pea on the other hand is like a slippery eel who does not get pinned to the ropes easily. Duran would struggle much harder against Pea than Mayweather at lightweight.

RJJ against Duran could only happen at middleweight. Durans best performances at middleweight was against Hagler and Barkley. Duran might have been older slower and fighting much bigger men at middleweight but prime Hags and Barkley had styles that Duran thrives against. Duran loves fighters who come to fight because he's so intelligent and slick in that area. RJJ would be totally different though. He would pick the older, slower and smaller Duran off at range and do a number on him. Likely stopping him mid rounds. If they were same size, same weight and in equal primes Duran would absolutely crush RJJ.

I've seen those Greb clips and I admit he looks a bit weird. His resume can't be denied though. His resume is remarkable. Gene Tunney looks great on film and Greb beat him even though he was hugely outweighed. I still have Robinson as the GOAT even though I have to admit Grebs resume is greater. It's subjective.

duran lost to leonard 2 because he hated the running, the moving, the footwork, the footspeed. that were the reasons, not that duran was past prime.

in the first fight, leonard tried to box how duran likes to box. mano a mano, a fight. he lost. the same way floyd would have lost would floyd had fought canelo in a brawl fight. but than leonard did, what floyd did to the stronger canelo, moving, sticking, running etc. the rest you know what happened.

nobody crushes prime jones. fastes hands, most athletic, best reflexes, nobody touched a 90 jones and made future atg look like sparring partner...X..toney etc.

the floyd that sruggled with b+ maidana was also past prime and the trues is, styles make fight and anybody at some point struggled against b class.

prime jones got dropped by de valle

prime ali got knocked down by this german dude

pac lost when he was 17

hopkins lost his 1 pro fight

and prime duran lost to esteban

nostalgia is a heck of a drug

No, Durans prime fighting weight was at lightweight. That's was his natural weight, the weight he was at his peak physical and the weight he dominated for a decade amassing 70+ wins. When Duran fought Leonard in Montreal he was fighting two weights above his prime weight and was slightly past his prime, but he got himself into ridiculous shape to counter all that. Duran forced his will on Leonard in that first fight and there was nothing Leonard could do about it back foot or front.

The REAL REASONS Duran lost the second fight was a combination of factors. 1- Being past prime. 2- Being two weights above his natural weight fighting a prime natural welter future ATG. 3- Being in poor physical and mental condition due to excessive partying which resulted in him having to spend all camp cutting weight which is not good at all. 4- Leonard knowing Duran was going to be less powerfull and sharp due to a poor camp and employing a game plan to take advantage of it. 5 Leonard being better prepared mentally. 6 Leonard being one of the most complete fighters in boxing history with the physical attributes, skillz and mentality to pull it off.

Jones was phenomenal at his peak but he had a huge stylistic advantage over Toney which is foot and hand speed. P4P a prime Duran would have the faints and foot speed to fool and close the gap on RJJ and get inside his range and beat on him real bad on the inside where RJJ is inferior to Duran. Toney was slick as feck and great on the inside but he had feet like cement and couldn't get inside against RJJ. Duran was extremely mobile in his prime, his feet are way faster than Toneys. P4P there is no fighter in history a prime Duran wouldn't be able to get inside of imo.