BoxRec

Kalan believes Robinson was greater at Middleweight and I feel he was greater and more prime at Welterweight. I would love your opinions guys...

Had the great Sugar Ray Robinson retired by 1951 when he relinquished the World Welterweight Title, he would have still be a hall of fame boxer, an all time top pound per pound great and still be considered as the greatest welterweight fighter of all time.

His fights at middleweight after 1951 were like icing on the cake. He had a tougher career at middleweight, due to weight and going up on age, but by the mid 1950s, his career was already secured by the boxing history buffs.

elmersalsa wrote:Had the great Sugar Ray Robinson retired by 1951 when he relinquished the World Welterweight Title, he would have still be a hall of fame boxer, an all time top pound per pound great and still be considered as the greatest welterweight fighter of all time.

His fights at middleweight after 1951 were like icing on the cake. He had a tougher career at middleweight, due to weight and going up on age, but by the mid 1950s, his career was already secured by the boxing history buffs.

Pure and simple WW.

A fair amount of MW's could beat him. Can't think of WW that could get the job done.

evrenb wrote:Kalan believes Robinson was greater at Middleweight

No he doesn't, he believes saying something contrary to popular belief is cool

davie wrote:

evrenb wrote:Kalan believes Robinson was greater at Middleweight

No he doesn't, he believes saying something contrary to popular belief is cool

maybe one step further.....I suspect he DOES believe what he says.....but he perhaps changes what he believes depending on the humidity.

Robinson was a better Welterweight Fighter than a Middleweight Fighter.

However SRR achieved most of his fame and fortune for his exploits at Middleweight... How many of his Welterweight opponents can most fans name??? Everybody's heard of Carmen Basilio---but SRR was a Middleweight when he went 1-1 with Basilio... His fight with Henry Armstrong was terrible and widely panned... Few ever talk about his Kid Gavilan fight.

People talk about the Randy Turpin fights... The Gene Fullmer fights... The Joey Maxim Fight... The LaMotta fight for the Middleweight Title... The Graziano fight.. The Bobo Olson fights... The Basilio fights... and his unfortunate upset loss to Ralph "Tiger" Jones.

davie wrote:

evrenb wrote:Kalan believes Robinson was greater at Middleweight

No he doesn't, he believes saying something contrary to popular belief is cool

No I don't.. I believe the truth is cool.. I believe myths and legends are cool too.. but the facts sometime sometimes get lost in them..

Popular belief is often correct.. but if there would be no upset victories if it were always correct.

For me nr 1 Ww, nr 2 Mw.

Sammy angott x 3
Marty servo x 2
Fritzie Zivic x 2
Jake la motta x 5
Henry Armstrong
Jose basora
Artie levine
Tommy bell x 2
Georgie abrams
Jimmy Doyle
Bernard docusen
Kid gavilan x 2
Charlie Fusari

These are just a few of the very great fighters Robinson fought at welter...I included Armstrong as Kalan doesn't recognise the blurry lines of when a fighter is past his prime, not least when it's to weigh in on one of his biased arguments. There are many other great fighters also .....his record amongst this great bunch is 23-1-1.
The draw with basora was avenged at middle..and yes a couple of the lamotta fights were over the welter limit.

Kalan wrote: His fight with Henry Armstrong was terrible and widely panned...

They were good friends, Armstrong was way past his best and SRR wanted to give him a good payday as Armstrong was in debt. Reports of the fight say SRR hardly threw a punch in anger and he admitted years later that he carried him.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 420,584289

The record clearly indicates @ welter in the 1940s.

Definitely Welterweight, though ironically, the most impressive win of his career came at Middleweight.

evrenb wrote:Sammy angott x 3
Marty servo x 2
Fritzie Zivic x 2
Jake la motta x 5
Henry Armstrong
Jose basora
Artie levine
Tommy bell x 2
Georgie abrams
Jimmy Doyle
Bernard docusen
Kid gavilan x 2
Charlie Fusari

These are just a few of the very great fighters Robinson fought at welter...I included Armstrong as Kalan doesn't recognise the blurry lines of when a fighter is past his prime, not least when it's to weigh in on one of his biased arguments. There are many other great fighters also .....his record amongst this great bunch is 23-1-1.
The draw with basora was avenged at middle..and yes a couple of the lamotta fights were over the welter limit.

Weren't all the Lamotta fight fights over the Welterweight limit? I would've assumed most of their fights other than the famous Middleweight title fight would've been at what would today be Jr. Middleweight. or right around there.

It's self serving to put out a list of mediocre Robinson opponents and call them "great" fighters... People throw around "great" so much it doesn't mean anything. An 8-round fighter beats an opponent with a record of 8-3 and calls him a "great fighter" ... Commentators watch a show boating 4-round fighter who'll never make it throw flashy flurries and call him a "great technician." ... Ferdie Pacheco commentates on Ali fights like he's a boxing expert because he's Ali's doctor, and calls unknown Ali opponents "great." ... Joseph Parker gets called "great" presumably because he's undefeated, won a world title of some kind, and struggled mightily to beat Carlos Takam and Andy Ruiz in New Zealand.

Great is a little like awesome. Whatever you do it's awesome. If you run to the store and grab a few stakes because you're running out. "Awesome"

This just shows your total ignorance.

That showed your pathetic stupidity, troll.

Your claim that Robinson was a better / greater middleweight than welterweight isn't a great claim in hindsight...?? What an idiot you are...disrespectful of all the class posters on here..your opinion is largely worthless. All you have is all the time in the world and a 'louder bark'. ..trolls like you with soooo much time on your hands could be put to good use. Instead you are an irritating, spotty teenager who needs to get a life and not troll people who know far more than you ever will.

gilgamesh wrote:

evrenb wrote:Sammy angott x 3
Marty servo x 2
Fritzie Zivic x 2
Jake la motta x 5
Henry Armstrong
Jose basora
Artie levine
Tommy bell x 2
Georgie abrams
Jimmy Doyle
Bernard docusen
Kid gavilan x 2
Charlie Fusari

These are just a few of the very great fighters Robinson fought at welter...I included Armstrong as Kalan doesn't recognise the blurry lines of when a fighter is past his prime, not least when it's to weigh in on one of his biased arguments. There are many other great fighters also .....his record amongst this great bunch is 23-1-1.
The draw with basora was avenged at middle..and yes a couple of the lamotta fights were over the welter limit.

Weren't all the Lamotta fight fights over the Welterweight limit? I would've assumed most of their fights other than the famous Middleweight title fight would've been at what would today be Jr. Middleweight. or right around there.

A few of them were under welter limit a few over...I was highlighting the time period when Robinson was welter contender/champion.

Looks like it's sorted.....Robinson a better WW than MW.....AND/BUT greater glory in the upper MW ranking.

Everyone agrees, a truce is agreed to, peace is at hand.........said Neville.

BoxBuzz wrote:Looks like it's sorted.....Robinson a better WW than MW.....AND/BUT greater glory in the upper MW ranking.

Everyone agrees, a truce is agreed to, peace is at hand.........said Neville.

Why is it greater glory?? Media has replayed those middleweight fights against basilio/fullmer/turpin fights and made big deals out of them (which they were) but defeating gavilan x 2 is a greater achievement than any of those...as no films exist (known to) of those welterweight matches history has diluted their significance. ..they are almost forgotten. Gavilan was one of the greatest ever too..and beating him in his prime was a very big deal historically.

Good point...dont' really disagree.....I just think the MW activity got more press. Not that they were a better indicator at all.

evrenb wrote:Your claim that Robinson was a better / greater middleweight than welterweight isn't a great claim in hindsight...?? What an idiot you are...disrespectful of all the class posters on here..your opinion is largely worthless. All you have is all the time in the world and a 'louder bark'. ..trolls like you with soooo much time on your hands could be put to good use. Instead you are an irritating, spotty teenager who needs to get a life and not troll people who know far more than you ever will.

You're the troll numbnuts. I said he's best known as a 5-time Middleweight Champ -- which is correct.

Both.

Obviously, overall he was better at welterweight. He fought for a very long time and most of his middleweight career he was old. However, until he retired the first time, it was about even.