BoxRec

We all know Henry Armstrong's peak most throughout the 1930s, including 1937 to 1939, but does anyone think Armstrong's skills were declining in 1940 the same year he was robbed out of the middleweight title fight with Ceferino Garcia in their rematch or when he lost the title to Fritzie Zivic later that year? What is your opinion?

scorpio83 wrote:We all know Henry Armstrong's peak most throughout the 1930s, including 1937 to 1939, but does anyone think Armstrong's skills were declining in 1940 the same year he was robbed out of the middleweight title fight with Ceferino Garcia in their rematch or when he lost the title to Fritzie Zivic later that year? What is your opinion?

His career was spotted with so many losses so it's hard to tell... and he was fed a long line of 2nd raters... Ceferino Garcia wasn't the Middleweight Champion anyway... He was only recognized in California... It was a fraud to get Armstrong another title and hype him up some more... Garcia weighed 153. He lost to Armstrong and Barney Ross as a Welterweight when he was past 30 so they thought Armstrong could beat him again as a super small Middleweight.

scorpio83 wrote:We all know Henry Armstrong's peak most throughout the 1930s, including 1937 to 1939, but does anyone think Armstrong's skills were declining in 1940 the same year he was robbed out of the middleweight title fight with Ceferino Garcia in their rematch or when he lost the title to Fritzie Zivic later that year? What is your opinion?

I think that is when it happened. He was still a good fighter for several years after that, but not the fighter that he had once been.

He tried to walk through everything like Joe Frazier... That's why they kept him away from big punchers... They should have put a boxing glove on his head.

You could say that the bad decision in the second Garcia fight may have taken something out of him, he made a few more defences but then 30 consecutive rounds with Zivic finished him at the level he had previously attained.

Great fighter, literally massive heart.

By 1940

Flump wrote:You could say that the bad decision in the second Garcia fight may have taken something out of him, he made a few more defences but then 30 consecutive rounds with Zivic finished him at the level he had previously attained.

Great fighter, literally massive heart.

Zivic was tired of Armstrong's bullcrap fouling and gave it back to him... Zivic was anything but a puncher, but he hammered Armstrong out.

Flump wrote:You could say that the bad decision in the second Garcia fight may have taken something out of him, he made a few more defences but then 30 consecutive rounds with Zivic finished him at the level he had previously attained.

Great fighter, literally massive heart.

I think it was the effect of fighting so often and so often against quality opponents.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

Flump wrote:You could say that the bad decision in the second Garcia fight may have taken something out of him, he made a few more defences but then 30 consecutive rounds with Zivic finished him at the level he had previously attained.

Great fighter, literally massive heart.

I think it was the effect of fighting so often and so often against quality opponents.

True enough. And with his non stop style. Held three titles at the same time too, incredible.

He was a Madison Avenue hype job... I don't think he ever beat a prime boxer who was real good and he got away with a million fouls.

I think his nineteen title defences at Welter is still a record isn't it?

To flesh your point out more Alp, he had 11 title defences in 1939 alone, that would drain anyone's tank, let alone a guy who threw as many punches as Armstrong.

Kalan wrote:He was a Madison Avenue hype job... I don't think he ever beat a prime boxer who was real good and he got away with a million fouls.

I'm under the impression HH second a.t. behind SRR. What do other BoxRec Forum veterans say about Kalan's remark here?

Joe Speck wrote:

Kalan wrote:He was a Madison Avenue hype job... I don't think he ever beat a prime boxer who was real good and he got away with a million fouls.

I'm under the impression HH second a.t. behind SRR. What do other BoxRec Forum veterans say about Kalan's remark here?

When someone says that overrated Edwin Valero stops the great Henry Armstrong in his prime, it's time for any smart poster to leave Kalan's remarks alone and move on.

Advice: Don't waste your time!

I really don't care what anyone says about it... davie, for one, agrees with me that Armstrong was a very dirty fighter... but I think you only need to look at any of his youtube.com fights and you'll know about all he did was lead with his head, use it illegally for leverage, and keep heading, shouldering, pushing, using his forearms and even hands to push you around and control you... He was warned a lot and DQ'd twice, but his backers would get on referees and badger them to "let Hank fight" and they weren't talking about boxing or Queensberry. But he still lost a lot of fights.

He was a great fighter but his accomplishments were greatly exaggerated... Once he won the Lightweight Title he never defended the Featherweight Title.. In effect he had moved up in weight.. As for his Welterweight Title, Barney Ross fought as a Lightweight for his first 62 fights an was never a true Welterweight at any time. As for his attempt at the Middleweight Title, Ceferino Garcia wasn't a Middleweight.. He lost previously to Armstrong as a Welterweight and weighed 153. Only California recognized him as Middleweight Champ, so it was another canard.

Not seen many of his fights as they are hard to get hold of but from what I have read there are conflicting opinions. If you listen to Bert Sugar (which I don't) then you would be made to believe he was in the top 3 greatest ever. The guy must have something about him. Bert Sugar may not be my cup of tea but he knows a helluva lot more about boxing than I do. On these forums I respect so far Kalan and Davies opinions. They're both honest and make their statements or opinions in a clear way and seem quite passionate. Also Jip perhaps could be right about AJ, who knows?

I will now try and get some Armstrong videos and watch a few. It is often difficult to judge fighters from the past to those of modern day. Valero is one of my current favourites and yes it is POSSIBLE he could stop the great Henry.

Probable even...

Bert Sugar was a mindless idiot who carried his bias on his sleeve... He liked the old timers because he was an old timer... But he was as dumb as Dan Rafael.. Neither ever boxed and knew nothing about Boxing.. Rafael insisted Hopkins was going to beat Kovalev. He's another prune head.