BoxRec

This is meant to be a conversation topic so having said that, let me say this.
Anthony Joshua having only 19 bouts at this moment in time I believe at least 6 former Champs would Stop Joshua inside 10 rounds. ( Louis Liston Frazier Foreman
Holmes and Tyson) I also find him losing decisions to
Johnson Dempsey Marciano Ali Holyfield Lewis and Vitali Klitchko. as I said earlier at this point. As Joshua gets better these results change but I welcome any feedback
and discussion.

I feel that Anthony Joshua would be far too big and athletic for the likes of Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier.

He would have also towered above a physical prime version of “Big” George Foreman (by about 3 inches) and also outweighed him by more than 30lbs. Foreman’s power and resilience would pose significant problems to AJ, but the size discrepancy would have given the Brit an almost unfair advantage.

Larry Holmes had the ability to outbox Anthony Joshua, but AJ’s size and power would still be massive obstacles for the Hall-of-Famer to overcome. Put it this way, the Brit is not only more skilful than Earnie Shavers, but he’s more athletic, more powerful and far bigger. So ‘The Easton Assassin’ would face a monumental struggle to defeat AJ.

I genuinely believe that Anthony Joshua facing small men like Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano would be mismatches. These old-timers would simply be far too small to pose any serious challenge to the British behemoth.

Muhammad Ali always found a way to win, but even he’d struggle to overcome the size disadvantage.

That being said, I genuinely rate the chances of Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko and a prime version of his brother to be able to defeat the huge Brit. Anthony Joshua would need to improve his stylistic flaws and pacing issues before he could ever be remotely competitive against those guys.

Joshua is said to be 6ft 6

I don't know foremans height but it's definitely more than 6ft 2.5

Ok now you've edited it, I'd still say he's taller than 6ft 3. He was taller than ali

Ossyrules wrote:Joshua is said to be 6ft 6

I don't know foremans height but it's definitely more than 6ft 2.5

I'm not getting into a discussion about half an inch or so.

However, the size discrepancy concerns I aired in my previous post remain true.

Put it this way, a prime version of David Haye was about the same height and weight as the physical prime versions of Larry Holmes and George Foreman.

If you compare the photos of Wladimir Klitschko and David Haye, with the Ukrainian being roughly the same height as Anthony Joshua, you'll appreciate the issue that I'm trying to convey:

No problems with me you're just normally a stickler for detail. So 6ft 2.5 has a bigger disadvantage than a 6ft 3.5/4 whatever foreman is.

Not that it really matters but Wlad had the edge on Joshua in height imo, and Haye although claims to be 6ft 3, I question it he appears shorter. So little exaggerations make the situation seem worse

Joshua beats all the far smaller champions like Louis and Dempsey and Liston and Marciano and Patterson etc. Just too big, and can box and punch.

Guys like Foreman steamroll through AJ. Tyson annihilates him. Vitali too strong. Bowe annihilates him.

Ali and Homes would be interesting because neither were killers, and both would be giving away a fair bit of weight. They could outpoint him and stip him late, but they'd have to be careful.

I would love to see a really talented 220-230 pound heavyweight come around again. Ideally, it would be someone who had speed, power, and an ability to pressure and throw punches in combination. It's very hard to imagine how these "behemoth" fighters would do in these fantasy match ups when there are no fighters around who bear any resemblance to great fighters of the past.

Having said that, I have a hard time envisioning a 200 pound heavyweight doing well fighting guys with this kind of size and athleticism. But, I can easily imagine a talented 220-230 pound heavyweight having considerable success.

jas80s wrote:I would love to see a really talented 220-230 pound heavyweight come around again. Ideally, it would be someone who had speed, power, and an ability to pressure and throw punches in combination. It's very hard to imagine how these "behemoth" fighters would do in these fantasy match ups when there are no fighters around who bear any resemblance to great fighters of the past.

Having said that, I have a hard time envisioning a 200 pound heavyweight doing well fighting guys with this kind of size and athleticism. But, I can easily imagine a talented 220-230 pound heavyweight having considerable success.

Indeed. Bowe was circa 230 lbs at best. A big man with real talent. Lewis too. Both these lads crush the HWs today. Crush them.

verlichte wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:Joshua is said to be 6ft 6

I don't know foremans height but it's definitely more than 6ft 2.5

I'm not getting into a discussion about half an inch or so.

However, the size discrepancy concerns I aired in my previous post remain true.

Put it this way, a prime version of David Haye was about the same height and weight as the physical prime versions of Larry Holmes and George Foreman.

If you compare the photos of Wladimir Klitschko and David Haye, with the Ukrainian being roughly the same height as Anthony Joshua, you'll appreciate the issue that I'm trying to convey:

I can't believe how young looks there. 36 to 40 is a LONG time.

walshb wrote:

jas80s wrote:I would love to see a really talented 220-230 pound heavyweight come around again. Ideally, it would be someone who had speed, power, and an ability to pressure and throw punches in combination. It's very hard to imagine how these "behemoth" fighters would do in these fantasy match ups when there are no fighters around who bear any resemblance to great fighters of the past.

Having said that, I have a hard time envisioning a 200 pound heavyweight doing well fighting guys with this kind of size and athleticism. But, I can easily imagine a talented 220-230 pound heavyweight having considerable success.

Indeed. Bowe was circa 230 lbs at best. A big man with real talent. Lewis too. Both these lads crush the HWs today. Crush them.

Bowe was horrible...

Bowe was as hittable as Chavez Jr... Some idiots here were saying Chavez was too big and tall for Canelo when he was a total JOKE!!! If you think Riddick Bowe was any good watch the first 3 rounds of his fight with Herbie Hide.. Hide easily outboxed Bowe through 3 but then Bowe was allowed to foul and brawl and batter Hide to finally get him out.. Vitali Klitschko crushed Herbie Hide in 2 rounds without brawling and shoving and holding and hitting and throwing him down and all the illegal things Bowe needed to do to win.

Andrew Golota was the one of the most inept and hittable Heavyweights who ever got a title shot.. He was caveman stupid.. Lewis, Brewster, and Tyson destroyed Golota as soon as the bell rang.. Bowe was so inept the thuggish Golota beat the sh!t out of him.. Bowe was pathetic when he faced any big, tall, strong man.. That's why Bowe threw his championship belt in the garbage can because he knew mandatory Lewis would knock him out again... Joshua would destroy Bowe or Golota in seconds of the 1st round.

BIGDOUG58 wrote:This is meant to be a conversation topic so having said that, let me say this.
Anthony Joshua having only 19 bouts at this moment in time I believe at least 6 former Champs would Stop Joshua inside 10 rounds. ( Louis Liston Frazier Foreman
Holmes and Tyson) I also find him losing decisions to
Johnson Dempsey Marciano Ali Holyfield Lewis and Vitali Klitchko. as I said earlier at this point. As Joshua gets better these results change but I welcome any feedback
and discussion.

louis: possible ko vitory
liston: no way, too obvious, too slow
frazier: doesn't come close to hurting aj
foreman: no idea tbh
holmes: possible ko victory
tyson: no, aj keeps composure until frustration
kicks in

Kalan wrote:

walshb wrote:

jas80s wrote:I would love to see a really talented 220-230 pound heavyweight come around again. Ideally, it would be someone who had speed, power, and an ability to pressure and throw punches in combination. It's very hard to imagine how these "behemoth" fighters would do in these fantasy match ups when there are no fighters around who bear any resemblance to great fighters of the past.

Having said that, I have a hard time envisioning a 200 pound heavyweight doing well fighting guys with this kind of size and athleticism. But, I can easily imagine a talented 220-230 pound heavyweight having considerable success.

Indeed. Bowe was circa 230 lbs at best. A big man with real talent. Lewis too. Both these lads crush the HWs today. Crush them.

Bowe was horrible...

Bowe was as hittable as Chavez Jr... Some idiots here were saying Chavez was too big and tall for Canelo when he was a total JOKE!!! If you think Riddick Bowe was any good watch the first 3 rounds of his fight with Herbie Hide.. Hide easily outboxed Bowe through 3 but then Bowe was allowed to foul and brawl and batter Hide to finally get him out.. Vitali Klitschko crushed Herbie Hide in 2 rounds without brawling and shoving and holding and hitting and throwing him down and all the illegal things Bowe needed to do to win.

Andrew Golota was the one of the most inept and hittable Heavyweights who ever got a title shot.. He was caveman stupid.. Lewis, Brewster, and Tyson destroyed Golota as soon as the bell rang.. Bowe was so inept the thuggish Golota beat the sh!t out of him.. Bowe was pathetic when he faced any big, tall, strong man.. That's why Bowe threw his championship belt in the garbage can because he knew mandatory Lewis would knock him out again... Joshua would destroy Bowe or Golota in seconds of the 1st round.

Bowe was a quality heavyweight and 50% responsible for possibly the best trilogy in heavyweight boxing after Ali Frazier

man wrote:

BIGDOUG58 wrote:This is meant to be a conversation topic so having said that, let me say this.
Anthony Joshua having only 19 bouts at this moment in time I believe at least 6 former Champs would Stop Joshua inside 10 rounds. ( Louis Liston Frazier Foreman
Holmes and Tyson) I also find him losing decisions to
Johnson Dempsey Marciano Ali Holyfield Lewis and Vitali Klitchko. as I said earlier at this point. As Joshua gets better these results change but I welcome any feedback
and discussion.

louis: possible ko vitory
liston: no way, too obvious, too slow
frazier: doesn't come close to hurting aj
foreman: no idea tbh
holmes: possible ko victory
tyson: no, aj keeps composure until frustration
kicks in

George Foreman was almost as easy to jab as swinger Riddick Bowe.. Jimmy Young easily pinked a young Foreman with nifty jabs... Young had only 20 win and 5 losses and Young LOST 4 of his next 5 fights after out-boxing the much bigger, taller, and stronger Foreman..

Anthony Joshua has a really good jab and even got popped it into Wladimi Klitschko's face... And AJ's right counter is brilliant.. When Foreman sticks out his super slow power jab, Joshua's right counters and combinations would destroy him quickly.. Foreman was so exhausted in the Jimmy Young fight he was nearly KO'd by a featherweight hitter... Josh would murder the swinger.

Joshua would have the toughest time with superb master boxer Larry Holmes... However old Earnie Shavers and inept Reynaldo Sniped smashed Holmes with tremendous right hand punches that almost knocked Larry out cold... Joshua's quick and deadly right counters would spell DOOM for the master.

Ossyrules wrote:Bowe was a quality heavyweight and 50% responsible for possibly the best trilogy in heavyweight boxing after Ali Frazier

Bowe was complete sh!t against any big, tall, and powerful Heavyweight... He was a horrible boxer... The inept Andrew Golota was quickly knocked out by much more skilled Heavyweights than Bowe... Guys like Lewis, Tyson, and Brewster knocked Golota out immediately... The pathetic punching bag Golota beat the crap out of Bowe... Anybody big, tall, and strong Heavyweight with the slightest skills would wipe Bowe off the map.

BIGDOUG58 wrote:This is meant to be a conversation topic so having said that, let me say this.
Anthony Joshua having only 19 bouts at this moment in time I believe at least 6 former Champs would Stop Joshua inside 10 rounds. ( Louis Liston Frazier Foreman
Holmes and Tyson) I also find him losing decisions to
Johnson Dempsey Marciano Ali Holyfield Lewis and Vitali Klitchko. as I said earlier at this point. As Joshua gets better these results change but I welcome any feedback
and discussion.

There was a similar thread recently that had discussions on some of the match-ups you've listed here:

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=211219

It's funny how people always jump the gun and want to put somebody like Anthony Joshua against the ATG's the second he shows up on the World scene.

I see more and more why some people hate talking dream matchups. It just feels stupid at a certain point.

To be fair AJ has only had 19 fights, Lewis hadn't really achieved anything by his 19th fight, and Bowe defeated Pinklon Thomas in his 19th fight. A good win but not on a par with AJs win over Wladamir.

Joshua won Olympic gold a mere 4 years after first walking into a boxing gym. Pretty sure he's got a lot to learn and is nowhere near his peak to be compared to the mentioned fighters who had outstanding careers.

BIGDOUG58 wrote:This is meant to be a conversation topic so having said that, let me say this.
Anthony Joshua having only 19 bouts at this moment in time I believe at least 6 former Champs would Stop Joshua inside 10 rounds. ( Louis Liston Frazier Foreman
Holmes and Tyson) I also find him losing decisions to
Johnson Dempsey Marciano Ali Holyfield Lewis and Vitali Klitchko. as I said earlier at this point. As Joshua gets better these results change but I welcome any feedback
and discussion.

Small louis marciano frazier would need a trampoline to punch him lol

verlichte wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:Joshua is said to be 6ft 6

I don't know foremans height but it's definitely more than 6ft 2.5

I'm not getting into a discussion about half an inch or so.

However, the size discrepancy concerns I aired in my previous post remain true.

Put it this way, a prime version of David Haye was about the same height and weight as the physical prime versions of Larry Holmes and George Foreman.

If you compare the photos of Wladimir Klitschko and David Haye, with the Ukrainian being roughly the same height as Anthony Joshua, you'll appreciate the issue that I'm trying to convey:

You go on about size discrepancy, but then throw in Holyfield as one that could beat Joshua? He was 6'3" and 208 when he beat Foreman, at 28 yrs old. Kind of blows that size theory out the window. Also, comparing guys from the teens and twentys that could fight 25 rounds in 90 degree heat with small horsehair gloves isn't a fair comparison. I would have picked Dempsey and Johnson over Joshua if under those conditions.

Badhusker wrote:

verlichte wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:Joshua is said to be 6ft 6

I don't know foremans height but it's definitely more than 6ft 2.5

I'm not getting into a discussion about half an inch or so.

However, the size discrepancy concerns I aired in my previous post remain true.

Put it this way, a prime version of David Haye was about the same height and weight as the physical prime versions of Larry Holmes and George Foreman.

If you compare the photos of Wladimir Klitschko and David Haye, with the Ukrainian being roughly the same height as Anthony Joshua, you'll appreciate the issue that I'm trying to convey:

You go on about size discrepancy, but then throw in Holyfield as one that could beat Joshua? He was 6'3" and 208 when he beat Foreman, at 28 yrs old. Kind of blows that size theory out the window. Also, comparing guys from the teens and twentys that could fight 25 rounds in 90 degree heat with small horsehair gloves isn't a fair comparison. I would have picked Dempsey and Johnson over Joshua if under those conditions.

I prefer to think of these types of questions as, what if a fighter were around today who was very much like...and then throw in any great fighter. As you say, I don't take it literally as many things are different from era to era. Guys from the past would be different today and fighters today would be different in the past.

I think Lennox Lewis was a significant fighter in the history of boxing. To me, he was the first truly giant guy who could use his size and height to control his opponents and really limit their ability to do what they wanted to do. He was hardly impossible to beat, but he was something of a game changer to me. I think truly small heavyweights would struggle to find someone with that kind of build and athletic ability implementing that kind of fighting style. Joshua is very talented, but appears to still have the mindset of a guy looking for a KO (god bless him). If he weaves in a little more patience (ala Lewis) he has the potential to be an all timer and a a guy who again raises the bar in the heavyweight division.

But, no matter what he does, it doesn't lessen any fighters of the past in my estimation, what would happen if they were matched will always be conjecture. You can break it down all you want, you'll never convince anybody of anything.

verlichte wrote:I feel that Anthony Joshua would be far too big and athletic for the likes of Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier.

He would have also towered above a physical prime version of “Big” George Foreman (by about 3 inches) and also outweighed him by more than 30lbs. Foreman’s power and resilience would pose significant problems to AJ, but the size discrepancy would have given the Brit an almost unfair advantage.

Larry Holmes had the ability to outbox Anthony Joshua, but AJ’s size and power would still be massive obstacles for the Hall-of-Famer to overcome. Put it this way, the Brit is not only more skilful than Earnie Shavers, but he’s more athletic, more powerful and far bigger. So ‘The Easton Assassin’ would face a monumental struggle to defeat AJ.

I genuinely believe that Anthony Joshua facing small men like Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano would be mismatches. These old-timers would simply be far too small to pose any serious challenge to the British behemoth.

Muhammad Ali always found a way to win, but even he’d struggle to overcome the size disadvantage.

That being said, I genuinely rate the chances of Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko and a prime version of his brother to be able to defeat the huge Brit. Anthony Joshua would need to improve his stylistic flaws and pacing issues before he could ever be remotely competitive against those guys.

Absolutely agree - AJ could beat anyone from history - he's very big strong fit and he's a powerful intelligent warrior with no glaring weaknesses - Could conceivably beat the GOATs based on the spectacular excellence he showed vs Klitschko

Vitali and Fury are the only ones who have a chance in my opinion.

Badhusker wrote:You go on about size discrepancy, but then throw in Holyfield as one that could beat Joshua? He was 6'3" and 208 when he beat Foreman, at 28 yrs old. Kind of blows that size theory out the window.

I never once said that small heavyweights were physically incapable of ever defeating the true heavyweight giants of the division. If you thought I did, then please quote my words.

That being said, I am of the opinion that Evander Holyfied had a proven track record of being capable of defeating genuine Hall-of-Fame worthy 6’ 5”+ 240lbs+ talent.

I don’t believe that any of the other small guys listed in the first post in this thread possessed such a prestigious reputation of overcoming heavyweight giants that were comparable in size to Anthony Joshua.

That is the reason why I believe that a supremely athletic prime version of Evander Holyfield would likely defeat Anthony Joshua.

If you personally feel that this opinion is wholly unreasonable, then please explain the reason why.

Badhusker wrote:Also, comparing guys from the teens and twentys that could fight 25 rounds in 90 degree heat with small horsehair gloves isn't a fair comparison. I would have picked Dempsey and Johnson over Joshua if under those conditions.

There’s nothing wrong with different people having different opinions, as long as they’re both equally educated on the matter.

That being said, how much media is available to evaluate the fighting ability of Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson? How much do you truly know about these guys and the opponents they faced?

I don’t know how anyone can be supremely confident that these old-timers would be capable of defeating the likes of Anthony Joshua, when both of them would have been about five inches shorter and between 40lbs to 60lbs lighter, primarily on the basis of reading words written by authors that never saw these guys fight!

I have a lot of respect for the old-timers, but I think it’s impossible to compare them to modern day heavyweights, because none of us truly know enough about them… and it’s impossible to ascertain a decent amount of knowledge in order to draw comparisons.

I’m not necessarily accusing you of this, but there’s an awful lot of pretentious people that frequent this forum that have the sheer audacity to cite acronyms, terminology and highly-respected boxing names, without actually knowing very much about the vocabulary they’re using, in order to make themselves appear superficially smarter to others.

[quote="BIGDOUG58"]This is meant to be a conversation topic so having said that, let me say this.
Anthony Joshua having only 19 bouts at this moment in time I believe at least 6 former Champs would Stop Joshua inside 10 rounds. ( Louis Liston Frazier Foreman
Holmes and Tyson) I also find him losing decisions to
Johnson Dempsey Marciano Ali Holyfield Lewis and Vitali Klitchko. as I said earlier at this point. As Joshua gets better these results change but I welcome any feedback
and discussion.[/quolike

This sounds about right. All of the fighters mentioned above may be smaller than Joshua (Klitschko excepted), but they were all quicker on their feet than Joshua (Klitschko excepted?). Wlad gave Joshua a great boxing lesson by dancing around him. At times it was astonishing to see the much older fighter dazzling the younger man in this fashion. A prime Ali would have AJ chasing shadows, and a prime Tyson would not have let him off the hook the way Wlad did.

AJ has a lot of room for improvement but there's only so much you can do about foot speed and reflexes. Power and size do become counter productive beyond a certain point.

It is a testament to modern training methods that athletes like Joshua and Bolt are able to take advantage of their size in this era. But they are still the exception.