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Despite hammering Sonny Liston so emphatically the public were not convinced by Cassius Clay. Particularly after the young braggart then changed his name to Muhammad Ali to conform with his evolving religious beliefs.

The rematch with Liston was originally set for November 1964 but Ali had to undergo emergency surgery for a strangulated hernia, forcing a postponement three days before the opening bell was due to sound.

This sequel was never destined to run smoothly.

The bout was re-scheduled for Boston, but less than three weeks before fight night, the city’s district attorney told the fighters to look elsewhere because the promoters were not licensed in Massachusetts. A youth centre in the creaking industrial city of Lewiston, Maine, somehow got the gig. Extra police were called to oversee the May 25 1965 bout when rumours persisted that extreme supporters of Malcolm X, who had been assassinated three months previously, intended to kill Ali while he was in the ring.

As a consequence of the escalating chaos, just 2,434 attended (of which 1,510 were complimentary tickets) making it the smallest ever audience for a heavyweight title fight. Some were amused, others disgusted, when Canadian singer Robert Goulet forgot the words to the national anthem.

The challenger, hoping to become only the second man in history to regain the crown, pointed towards Ali beforehand and said, “This time I am going to knock you out.”

Oddsmakers again sided with the slugger, declaring him a 6-to-5 favourite to restore his pride.

The phantom punch

Debate raged about the punch that ended matters. Canadian heavyweight George Chuvalo, an absurdly durable contender whose chin could withstand a speeding train, was ringside and claimed Liston threw the fight.

“His eyes were darting from side-to-side,” he said. “When a fighter is hurt his eyes roll up.” However, Dr. Carroll L. Witten, former Kentucky State Boxing Commissioner, responded: “Chuvalo is wrong. The side-to-side movement of eyes is commonly associated with temporary unconsciousness and is one of the first things you look for. It is called nystagmus.”

World light-heavyweight champion Jose Torres also validated the finishing blow, calling it a “perfect punch” and Tex Maule of Sports Illustrated wrote, “The blow had so much force it lifted Liston’s left foot, upon which most of his weight was resting, well off the canvas.”

But only a few were convinced. Commentator Don Dunphy said: “If that was a punch, I’ll eat it,” he said. “Here was a guy who was in prison and the guards use to beat him over the head with clubs and couldn’t knock him down.”

In 1967, three years before his equally mysterious death, Liston allegedly told Sports Illustrated journalist Mark Kram that he took a dive over fears he might get shot by a bullet aimed for Ali.

The only thing that’s certain, all these years later, is that the conundrum of the phantom punch will never be solved.

A genuine forensic review reveals that it was no phantom punch.

But an interesting series of unusual physics. Measurable, and somewhat predictable as to it's potential.

Completely capable of scrambling someone's senses in just the way that plays out. Lack of balance and all.

Now....what ensued in Liston's mind as he was attempting to recover from it, that's a bit more uncertain.

And the only "mystery", is a possible psychological mystery.

you know this never goes away.I was listening to the late nigth radio last month and they were interviewing the last Mafia Don of Philadelphia,Ralph Natalie promoting his book and they talked about it on the show.
He didnt have anything to do with it but 'he heard some things" by people who knew about it.

Liston said Ali didn't go to a neutral corner and he saw Ali running at him out of the corner of his eye... He thought the count would be suspended (re the rules) til Ali went to a neutral corner and he had plenty of time to get up... Liston NEVER got a count from referee Walcott because Walcott was busy trying to get Ali to comply with his commands to go to a neutral corner -- something Ali NEVER DID.. When Ali finally appeared to be a safe distance away, Liston got up and squared off to fight... Ali easily could have been DQ'd for failing to comply with Walcott's direct orders.

If you really wanted to throw a fight you would stay down until counted out.. You WOULDN'T get up ready to fight have the referee wipe off your gloves.. and then square off the fight ducking and dodging every follow up punch that Ali threw... Why wouldn't he just take one of those punches and go down again rather than ducking and dodging them??? Ali, Liston, and Walcott ALL thought the fight was still on.

You can even see in the above still shot of the fight you opened the thread with... Ali was SUPPOSED TO BE in a neutral corner at that time... He WASN'T!!

Kalan, who do you think was winning the first fight up until the stoppage?

Liston took a dive and Walcott was clueless.

One does not contradict the other.

I seem to remember something similiar occured in the fight with Oscar Bonavena,as far as not going to a nuetral corner.

Ruthless-RKO wrote:Canadian heavyweight George Chuvalo, an absurdly durable contender whose chin could withstand a speeding train, was ringside and claimed Liston threw the fight. The only thing that’s certain, all these years later, is that the conundrum of the phantom punch will never be solved.

Chuvalo was so durable that he was knocked out quickly by Frazier and Foreman -- 2 of the best hitters of his day. They didn't need the power of a speeding train to make Chuvalo start flagging. He essentially gave up against Frazier -- and was rescued by the referee as Foreman was butchering him.

The conundrum of the phantom punch was solved a long time ago...

A sharp right counter decked Sonny Liston in what should have been a flash knockdown, or at least not a real serious knockdown... Ali refused to go to a neutral corner and the count should have been suspended.. Liston was wary of Ali not going to a neutral corner, standing over him, or running around behind him.. Walcott gave up trying to push Ali to a neutral corner. He went over to Liston to wipe off his gloves because Liston had gotten up without a count from the referee.. The count was not suspended because neither the timekeeper nor Nat Fleischer (Ring Magazine editor sitting next to the timekeeper) knew the rule, or they simply forgot about the rule.

As Walcott was wiping off Liston's gloves Nat Fleischer was screaming at him. Without calling time Walcott walked over to Fleischer to see what he was yelling about. Meanwhile Ali and Liston squared off to fight -- as far as they knew the fight was still on. Ali attacked Liston with a flurry of follow up punches, missing every one. Liston said this was his plan all along. To trick Ali into taking the offensive so he could get a big opening.

As Ali attacked Liston Fleischer shouted, "Liston was down for 10 seconds the fight's over" ... The timekeeper confirmed Fleischer's statement. Walcott came back and told Ali and Liston, "Liston was down for 10...Ali you won." Liston was stunned.. But he'd been shat on all his life, and was used to it. Liston got knee-jerk blame for the ending. His license to box was revoked in all 50 states though he never broke a rule and he got up and resumed fighting.. The premise was Liston faked the knockdown..

Both Dempsey and Marciano said they saw the "Phantom Punch" as the media called it.. They both said nobody could tell how hard it landed unless they were on the receiving end. Marciano said "It could have hurt Liston and confused him very much." They weren't listened to. Anything evidence that supported Liston was summarily dismissed and he was banned.

Kalan you need to steer a different course on this, it's sounding too much like we agree.....

which will have people here doubting your very existence.

It would also be helpful if you could tone down your accolades on Monzon....another area where we inexplicably agree.

I guess if there's 10,000 points of light, you might accidentally stumble onto 1 of them BuzzBox... And maintain your ignorance on the other 9,998.

I've got to work on a better self image.

In a discussion of the rules this is a pertinent post to APerno on the other thread on this subject:

Kalan wrote:

APerno wrote:Most of what you stated is here except the prohibition against the timekeeper being able to count a fighter out - there is no rule stated for a situation where the referee NEVER picks up the count - the rules make the assumption that the ref will eventually pick up the count. So it seems there is no answer that that particular situation.

[APerno quoting the rules] "if a fighter stands up after a KD and then falls back down again the referee does not restart the count, but continues the count ... funny, but this is one Walcott got right that night.

The timekeeper, by effective signaling, shall give the referee the correct 1-second interval for the count. The referee’s count is the official count. Once the referee picks up the count from the timekeeper, the timekeeper shall cease counting.

If the opponent fails to stay in the farthest corner, the referee shall cease counting until the opponent has returned to his or her corner and shall then go on with the count from the point at which it was interrupted.

If a knockdown occurs before the normal termination of a period of unarmed combat and the unarmed combatant who is down stands up before the count of 10 is reached and then falls down immediately without being struck, the referee shall resume the count where it was left off.

Let's stop with the nonsense and deal in common sense... Liston didn't get up and go back down.. He fell back after rising to a knee, which many fighters do. He didn't do a Zab Judah -- he was only down once.

I've seen rules that state only the referee and not the timekeeper can count the boxer out... That makes sense because you don't want split authority on something that decisive... About the only instance where the referee WOULDN'T pick up the count withing 10 seconds would be if he were dealing with an incorrigible like Ali -- who refused to go to or stay in a neutral corner at all.

The above statement "The referees' count is the official count" works in this case. The official count never started. Liston got up without an official count. Therefore it logically proceeds that since he was not counted out officially, the fight continues.

Some rule books state that if a boxer refuses to go to a neutral corner the count is suspended AND also state if a boxer fails to stay in a neutral corner the count is suspended.. Both statements address the same same issue of the opponent not being "in" a neutral corner during a count.. Both statements work in this case.. Ali effectively "failed to stay in the farthest neutral corner" and when he did, which was all the time, the count ceased happening. If Ali returned to the farthest neutral corner---or even went there at all---the count would continue where it was interrupted.. In this particular case it was interrupted before it started.. Did an official count ever start??? ... No it did not.. So it would start with "ONE"