BoxRec

A recent thread on the Johnson-Willard 'fixed fight' theory got turned every which way. - So in regards to Clay-Liston, I was tempted to set-up one of those radio button surveys as a joke: Which fight do you think was 'more' fixed I or II?** - But considering this article I thought I take a more serious approach: http://www.cbssports.com/general/news/t ... as-rigged/

I am of the mind that Liston laid down for the second fight, but I am not so sure it was a (gambling motivated) fixed fight; I often thought that Liston pulled a Marciano-Walcott II (Yes, I am aware of who the referee was.) Why take a beating in a fight you know you can't win?; why not take a punch early, find a soft spot to lay down and collect your check. - For both fighters (Liston/Walcott), white men/promoters had never done them a kindness; I suspect neither thought they owed anyone. - That's what I thought I saw happen in Clay-Liston II

** Kind of like the "have you stopped beating your wife" question.

Liston was trying to win the first fight. His corner even cheated rubbing that stuff on Sonny's gloves.

I also think the 2nd fight was fixed. I'm not basing it on the punch because it's tough to know how much a punch hurts. I'm basing it on film showing a clear eyed Liston get up and fall back down again.

Tony1244 wrote:Liston was trying to win the first fight. His corner even cheated rubbing that stuff on Sonny's gloves.

I also think the 2nd fight was fixed. I'm not basing it on the punch because it's tough to know how much a punch hurts. I'm basing it on film showing a clear eyed Liston get up and fall back down again.

Liston said he fell back down because Ali didn't go to a neutral corner and he saw Ali running at him out of the corner of his eye... He thought the count would be suspended (re the rules) til Ali went to a neutral corner and he had plenty of time to get up... Liston NEVER got a count from referee Walcott because Walcott was busy trying to get Ali to comply with his commands to go to a neutral corner -- something Ali never did.. When Ali appeared to be a safe distance away, Liston got up and squared off to fight.

If you really wanted to throw a fight you would stay down until counted out.. You WOULDN'T get up ready to fight have the referee wipe off your gloves.. and then square off the fight ducking and dodging every follow up punch that Ali threw... Why wouldn't he just take one of those punches and go down again rather than ducking and dodging them??? Ali, Liston, and Walcott ALL thought the fight was still on.

Article says... " Later people 'in the know' in Las Vegas told Magids that Resnick and Liston both reportedly made over $1 million betting against Liston"

As for the 1st fight. I love how phantom people "in the know" are created for BS articles like this one... Particularly when the people the article smears are dead.

Anybody can "suspect" anything.. 7 different doctors testified to the Boxing Commission that Liston's biceps tear was real...and left him unable to throw effectively with his left.. It wasn't a shoulder injury.. It was the same kind of biceps tear that Larry Holmes suffered in his fight with Ken Norton.

APerno wrote:A recent thread on the Johnson-Willard 'fixed fight' theory got turned every which way. - So in regards to Clay-Liston, I was tempted to set-up one of those radio button surveys as a joke: Which fight do you think was 'more' fixed I or II?** - But considering this article I thought I take a more serious approach: http://www.cbssports.com/general/news/t ... as-rigged/

I am of the mind that Liston laid down for the second fight, but I am not so sure it was a (gambling motivated) fixed fight; I often thought that Liston pulled a Marciano-Walcott II (Yes, I am aware of who the referee was.) Why take a beating in a fight you know you can't win?; why not take a punch early, find a soft spot to lay down and collect your check. - For both fighters (Liston/Walcott), white men/promoters had never done them a kindness; I suspect neither thought they owed anyone. - That's what I thought I saw happen in Clay-Liston II

** Kind of like the "have you stopped beating your wife" question.

Glad you mentioned the Marciano-Walcott fight. I have always thought that one looked fishy as well. Always thought it was strange that you hardly ever hear anyone talks about it.
Agree with you about the Liston fights. Liston knew he was not going to last 9 more rounds so he took the easy way out and quit. A lot of strange things happened in the rematch. Most imortant is watching Liston rolling around on the ground. That doesn't look legitimate at all.

The article refers to a 1966 FBI report, written when all the principals were still alive, and because it wasn't intended for public viewing until decades later, there seems no reason to believe anyone in the FBI was motivated to BS - no gain in it. - I wonder if the report to J. Edgar wasn't more about some agent seeing an advantage in keeping his compulsive gambler boss 'in the know.'

A fighter returning to the canvas so as to avoid an opponent who refuses to go to a neutral corner, would likely take a knee, (as Willard tried to do against Dempsey,) he wouldn't flop face down on the canvas as Liston did.

Liston didn't flop face down. Quit making stuff up that you know is BS. Ali was so unstable he was likely to do anything. Liston got out of Ali's way because he was running at him. The count was supposed to be suspended. Nobody was counting over Liston cuz Ali was being incorrigible and defying direct orders.

Why blame Liston when he didn’t break any rules and Ali and Walcott fuhked up royally???

Ambling Alp II wrote: Liston rolling around on the ground. That doesn't look legitimate at all.

He wasn't rolling around... He was waiting for Ali to be a safe distance so he didn't get tagged getting up... He said he was also trying to fool Ali into attacking him so he could set him up for a big shot... You IGNORE the fact that Liston got to his feet WITHOUT A COUNT and resumed the fight...

Why would he do that if his intentions were to throw the fight??????

BTW... How MANY fighters on their knees have been punched in the head by unstable fighters??? ... Foreman hit Roman when he was laid out on the canvas... Nigel Benn hit Iran Barkley when he was kneeling on the canvas and had both hands on the canvas... Did THEY get penalized??? NO!!!! ... A boxer has to look after himself against an unstable opponent... He CANNOT rely on the referee to be fair and impartial or know what he's doing because this sport is FUHKED.

The only thing that is "fixed" about those fights, is people's opinions, based on their active imaginations.

That's the only true thing you ever said BuzzBox... Congrats for finally getting one right after 22,255 posts

You're right he doesn't flop on his face he flops on his back - the argument that is he is avoiding a cheap shot from Ali doesn't work: when he chooses to go down the second time, he has no clue where Ali is; Ali is not standing over him. . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TADbnYQJg7w

BoxBuzz wrote:The only thing that is "fixed" about those fights, is people's opinions, based on their active imaginations.

Fixed is one thing, choosing to quit is another - there was a story going around at the time that Liston was ready for the Boston fight, so ready that the newspaper and magazine wags were predicting Liston would regain his title (in Boston) - I am not certain but I believe Liston went off an 8-5 favorite in the second fight, despite his earlier loss, because of all the good press he was getting - but when Ali canceled due to injury, the story goes, Liston lost interest, stopped training (hard) and became distracted, i.e. the Liston who appeared in Lewiston was a very different Liston than the one who would have appeared in Boston - some even went so far as to claim that Ali faked the injury because his people knew Liston was (very) ready for Boston.

All this I do not claim to be true, only that it was popular gossip at the time - for the record: I never thought fixed; I think he quit

My guess is Liston took a dive because he knew he had no chance of winning, but he botched the dive and then wasn't sure what to do.

Does anyone know if my statement/speculation that Liston went off the betting favorite in Lewiston is true or not?

APerno wrote:You're right he doesn't flop on his face he flops on his back - the argument that is he is avoiding a cheap shot from Ali doesn't work: when he chooses to go down the second time, he has no clue where Ali is; Ali is not standing over him. . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TADbnYQJg7w

You're full of crap AGAIN!!! ... NOBODY was counting over Liston. Therefore Liston KNEW Ali WASN'T in a neutral corner like he was supposed to be... For all Liston knew Ali was right behind him looking to get a cheap shot in. He said he caught a glimpse of Ali running at him. And he was right. Ali was. When Ali was right in front of Liston where he could see him, and at a safe distance, he got up right away...

You say NOTHING about Ali REFUSING to go to a neutral corner... Typical nonsense from you... The count should have been suspended.. Everybody but Liston screwed up royally in every way possible -- but he was the guy that was forced to take the rap for everybody else's incompetence.

APerno wrote: it was popular gossip at the time - for the record: I never thought fixed; I think he quit

That's what you traffic in, "popular gossip" A man doesn't quit when he gets up WITHOUT A COUNT and RESUMES FIGHTING, and then expertly slips and ducks every follow up punch by Ali. You never offered a single explanation as to why Liston would do that. Why he wouldn’t simply wait to be counted out like anybody else faking a KO defeat. He could even have taken the count on one knee like Max Baer if he liked.

Baer quit. He didn’t get up, let the referee wipe off his gloves, and resume boxing.

Guy's have taken dives to avoid a beating. Here's Mark Young doing against a young Mike Tyson watch from the 2:30 mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yVaDXr7x7s that right hand barely grazed him.

Sometimes I think a guy is so intimidated that he goes down without being hit that hard. Moorer-Tua seemed to be like that.
As for Liston-Ali II, I agree that Liston could have continued. Did he simply screw up throwing the fight? Or did he really get knocked down legitimately? Even if he was knocked down legitimately, watching him rolling around seemed fake.

The first fight was not fixed. Liston was getting beaten badly and knew he wasn't going to win. He simply quit.

Kalan wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote: Liston rolling around on the ground. That doesn't look legitimate at all.

He wasn't rolling around... He was waiting for Ali to be a safe distance so he didn't get tagged getting up... He said he was also trying to fool Ali into attacking him so he could set him up for a big shot... You IGNORE the fact that Liston got to his feet WITHOUT A COUNT and resumed the fight...

Why would he do that if his intentions were to throw the fight??????

Only since you asked: He got up because he couldn't stay on the ground forever. Yes he was rolliing around. Maybe you prefer the term flopping. It was certainly fake.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

Kalan wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote: Liston rolling around on the ground. That doesn't look legitimate at all.

He wasn't rolling around... He was waiting for Ali to be a safe distance so he didn't get tagged getting up... He said he was also trying to fool Ali into attacking him so he could set him up for a big shot... You IGNORE the fact that Liston got to his feet WITHOUT A COUNT and resumed the fight...

Why would he do that if his intentions were to throw the fight??????

Only since you asked: He got up because he couldn't stay on the ground forever. Yes he was rolliing around. Maybe you prefer the term flopping. It was certainly fake.

Don't talk nonsense.. Do you expect Liston to get up with Ali running around if a neutral corner rule is in effect???? Ali's supposed to be in the corner!!!!

Stay down FOREVER???? ... It takes a few seconds for a referee to push Ali to a neutral corner, tell him to stay there or he'll be disqualified, come back, and count you out... It takes longer to get up... get your gloves wiped off... square off to fight again... and wait for another believable KO punch to land so you can do it all over again... If you want to throw the fight, Ali could get himself DQ'd and wreck all your plans if you let the fight go on.