BoxRec

Did Willie Pep throw this fight? - Watch the slow motion KD at 1:40 - Watch three moments in particular: first, when Pep takes the KD blow his legs go out from under him in classic fashion, but watch instead Pep's head as he takes the KD punch, he rolls the punch, a technique Pep mastered over his career (Let me restate that: Pep PERFECTLY rolls the punch); second, Pep breaks his face-forward fall with his gloves; third, when the referee helps Pep back to his feet, Pep has a groggy look on his face, but there is this odd moment where, with his gloves still on the mat, Pep picks up his head a little so as to locate Perez, at that moment he is quite lucid; focused, then after locating Perez, Pep puts the the groggy look back on his face. The focus lasts only for a moment.- Maybe I am paranoid, good chance there, but Pep looks obvious to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIk465gqc6Q

It was a solid punch that had real good impact. Pep had taken a few hard ones already. Pep didn't shed the brunt of the blow. Pep didn't roll the punch perfectly. The punch rolled his head. He got caught right in front of the ear which is a tough spot to take a straight right. Pep said the airplane accident destroyed his chin and he had to be more defensive. All of Pep's KO losses came after he was nearly killed in a plane crash.

Try this video at 6 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o0c8fXHp-4 Roy Jones gets hit on the same spot with the same punch and he's flattened.

Kalan wrote:It was a solid punch that had real good impact. Pep had taken a few hard ones already. Pep didn't shed the brunt of the blow. Pep didn't roll the punch perfectly. The punch rolled his head. He got caught right in front of the ear which is a tough spot to take a straight right. Pep said the airplane accident destroyed his chin and he had to be more defensive. All of Pep's KO losses came after he was nearly killed in a plane crash.

Try this video at 6 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o0c8fXHp-4 Roy Jones gets hit on the same spot with the same punch and he's flattened.

Pep's head is turned away from the punch and is at the furthest distance from the punch it can be and still get hit; he is turning away from the punch as Perez begins to throw it.

What of his fall? - that looked real to you?

looked spot on the temporal region.
( you can literally see his bell being rung)
Pep fell that way because it stunned him and he wasnt expecting it.
the only people who would have been really upset with it were the people who had money on him to win.

APerno wrote:

Kalan wrote:It was a solid punch that had real good impact. Pep had taken a few hard ones already. Pep didn't shed the brunt of the blow. Pep didn't roll the punch perfectly. The punch rolled his head. He got caught right in front of the ear which is a tough spot to take a straight right. Pep said the airplane accident destroyed his chin and he had to be more defensive. All of Pep's KO losses came after he was nearly killed in a plane crash.

Try this video at 6 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o0c8fXHp-4 Roy Jones gets hit on the same spot with the same punch and he's flattened.

Pep's head is turned away from the punch and is at the furthest distance from the punch it can be and still get hit; he is turning away from the punch as Perez begins to throw it.

What of his fall? - that looked real to you?

He wasn't knocked out on he blow - just knocked woozy..

Sometimes boxers are knocked dizzy and they take a knee to recover. They take a count and get back up to resume fighting, like Liakhovich did versus Brewtster and he won the fight with the tactic.. Often times boxers go down, but break their fall with their hands, arms, or shoulders and you read in the paper or hear in the media that it was fake because you don't break your fall if you're knocked clean out.. But boxers say "I was hurt bad. I wasn't knocked out but just knocked dizzy. I got up when my head cleared." You saw the Lulu punch land with a lot of leverage on the bone right below the temple in front of the ear. Those hurt. You have the most leverage with the last 3 inches of the punch as you straighten the arm. So if your head is at the furthest distance it can be and still gets hit hard -- that's the worst distance you can be.

The higher on your head a punch lands the more likely it won't knock you out, but just hurt you real bad so that it could cause you do go down.. Sometimes boxers go down just for a respite. They can't take anymore so they take a count. It's ruled a knockdown anyway in all cases. I think Pep could have gotten up, but he was being hit a lot for Willie Pep. They didn't give him a chance to beat the count. They just ended because he got hit real good.

Well he was definitely felled by legitimate punches, you can see that much. But this fight has always tarnished Pep's reputation somewhat.

The NYSAC revoked Pep's licence afterwards and he never boxed in the state again. Pep sued Sports Illustrated years later after they alleged he took a dive in the fight for $16,000, I believe this was settled out of court. I also read that betting was suspended just before the fight because of the rumours going around. Certainly Perez stopping even a faded Willie Pep in just two rounds is quite an unexpected result.

It was Pep's chin that did him in... He did say the worst thing about the airplane crash -- that took several lives and obliterated the plane -- is it took his chin away... All 6 of his KO losses came after the crash... He was never knocked out in his first 110 fights... I'm not sure he was ever knocked down.

Pep said he always had a great chin before the plane crash. He never felt punches. Just before the crash he was finally starting to come into his own as a puncher---which took him 100 fights before he finally started letting his shots go and getting people out of there---but after the crash he couldn't stay in exchanges anymore. Because he'd be gone if he did... "I couldn't trade. I had to get out of there -- and sometimes they'd get me before I could."

You need to share with us how a plane crash takes away a fighter's chin, medically speaking; I am sure Pep said it, bu that does not make it so - maybe just 190+ fights can do it without there being a tragedy involved; then again maybe Pep is just so good that you can't see that he tanked the fight; that is why they call them 'artists,' because they can fool even the self proclaimed experts.

Anyway here is the news blurb about his suspension; it looks to be a medical decision - I am going to see if I can find the SI article that Flump alludes to . .

Excerpt from The Ring:

"Pep, who is generally recognized as the greatest featherweight ever and one of the best regardless of weight, almost certainly took a dive against Lulu Perez in 1954.

A ton of late money made Perez a 4-1 favorite, despite Pep’s number-one ranking and the fact that he’d gone 23-1 since his loss to Saddler. Perez stopped him in the second.

In 1981 Sports Illustrated published a story that suggested Pep threw the fight for $16,000. Pep sued for $75-million and lost. The jury deliberated just 15 minutes.

https://www.ringtv.com/121813-think-box ... ed-to-50s/

Excerpt from the Daily News

Here is a different interpretation of the court decision outcome - the Sugar mentioned is Bert Sugar

"Sugar said. WILLIE PEP vs. LULU PEREZ FEB. 26, 1954 Perez was a Top 10 contender from the Bronx when he met Pep, who had been fighting for 20 years at that point. Pep had been a great featherweight champion who had more fights than anyone in boxing. He had gone through a lot of money, saying that he lost a bundle on "fast women and slow horses.

" Pep denied that he took a dive in the Perez fight. He even sued Sports Illustrated in 1980 for an article the magazine wrote detailing the fight. The sides settled out of court. Sugar said Pep's behavior in the bout raised suspicion. Plus, he was KO'd in the second round by Perez. "Pep was listless. He was hit often. It just smelled," Sugar said. "The fight was taken off the board at the last minute. There were no bets allowed on the fight. There was nothing to support it (a fix) in terms of hard fact. Nobody stood in front of Congress."

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/spo ... e-1.525493

Still looking for the SI article . . .

APerno wrote:Excerpt from the Daily News

Here is a different interpretation of the court decision outcome - the Sugar mentioned is Bert Sugar

"Sugar said. WILLIE PEP vs. LULU PEREZ FEB. 26, 1954 Perez was a Top 10 contender from the Bronx when he met Pep, who had been fighting for 20 years at that point. Pep had been a great featherweight champion who had more fights than anyone in boxing. He had gone through a lot of money, saying that he lost a bundle on "fast women and slow horses.

" Pep denied that he took a dive in the Perez fight. He even sued Sports Illustrated in 1980 for an article the magazine wrote detailing the fight. The sides settled out of court. Sugar said Pep's behavior in the bout raised suspicion. Plus, he was KO'd in the second round by Perez. "Pep was listless. He was hit often. It just smelled," Sugar said. "The fight was taken off the board at the last minute. There were no bets allowed on the fight. There was nothing to support it (a fix) in terms of hard fact. Nobody stood in front of Congress."

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/spo ... e-1.525493

Still looking for the SI article . . .

Good work APerno

was this fight broadcast live on television ?
Of course the didnt have instant-replays back then to show what happened,
as Im sure the entire crowd and possibly television audience was shocked.

Caractacus wrote:was this fight broadcast live on television ?
Of course the didnt have instant-replays back then to show what happened,
as Im sure the entire crowd and possibly television audience was shocked.

Wikipedia claims Pep was on at least once of The Gillette 'Friday Night Fights' - not sure for which fight yet. - I believe the Graziano appearance was the Chuck Davey fight. - The Marciano fight must have been early; I am surprised early TV could afford SRR.

As Gillette Cavalcade of Sports[edit]
The Friday night program, broadcast from Madison Square Garden lasted until June 24, 1960, a 14-year period which is, by far, the longest continuous run of any boxing program in television history. The Gillette sponsorship began at the start of the first full television programming season, 1948-49. On September 4, the program was retitled The Gillette Cavalcade of Sports, a name that remained until the end of its run. Every great boxer of the time – including among others Rocky Marciano, Sugar Ray Robinson, Archie Moore, Rocky Graziano, Willie Pep – appeared on one or more of its broadcasts.

APerno wrote:" Pep denied that he took a dive in the Perez fight. He even sued Sports Illustrated in 1980 for an article the magazine wrote detailing the fight. The sides settled out of court. Still looking for the SI article . . .

WHICH IS IT??? ... Did Pep and Sports Illustrated settle out of court -- or was the jury out 15 minutes and ruled against Pep???

I have no doubt that if the case went to court -- the mob couldn't fix a judge and a jury easier than they could fix a fight.

Kalan wrote:

APerno wrote:" Pep denied that he took a dive in the Perez fight. He even sued Sports Illustrated in 1980 for an article the magazine wrote detailing the fight. The sides settled out of court. Still looking for the SI article . . .

WHICH IS IT??? ... Did Pep and Sports Illustrated settle out of court -- or was the jury out 15 minutes and ruled against Pep???

I have no doubt that if the case went to court -- the mob couldn't fix a judge and a jury easier than they could fix a fight.

I don't know that is why I posted both articles - history is a funny thing you never know who to trust - both sources seem good but tell a very different story .

APerno wrote:

Kalan wrote:

APerno wrote:" Pep denied that he took a dive in the Perez fight. He even sued Sports Illustrated in 1980 for an article the magazine wrote detailing the fight. The sides settled out of court. Still looking for the SI article . . .

WHICH IS IT??? ... Did Pep and Sports Illustrated settle out of court -- or was the jury out 15 minutes and ruled against Pep???

I have no doubt that if the case went to court -- the mob couldn't fix a judge and a jury easier than they could fix a fight.

I don't know that is why I posted both articles - history is a funny thing you never know who to trust - both sources seem good but tell a very different story .

Looks like he lost the suit...

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 0329&hl=en

Flump wrote:

APerno wrote:

Kalan wrote:
WHICH IS IT??? ... Did Pep and Sports Illustrated settle out of court -- or was the jury out 15 minutes and ruled against Pep???

I have no doubt that if the case went to court -- the mob couldn't fix a judge and a jury easier than they could fix a fight.

I don't know that is why I posted both articles - history is a funny thing you never know who to trust - both sources seem good but tell a very different story .

Looks like he lost the suit...

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 0329&hl=en

Funny how Burt Sugar had it so wrong - thanks for the info

Pep was also suspected of throwing a fight when he was knocked out by a boxer named Tommy Collins. Shows how good Pep was. Whenever he was knocked out by anyone other than Sandy Saddler, a fix was suspected.

This was despite the fact that Pep was past his best and had been almost killed in a terrible plane crash.

I remember reading that Doc Kearns autobiography wasn't even published until after he died.
So obviously Jack Dempsey couldn't sue him for libel.

APerno wrote:

Flump wrote:

APerno wrote:
I don't know that is why I posted both articles - history is a funny thing you never know who to trust - both sources seem good but tell a very different story .

Looks like he lost the suit...

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 0329&hl=en

Funny how Burt Sugar had it so wrong - thanks for the info

WOW!!! ... Pep was suckered by his lawyers into thinking he had a Hell of a case... He probably had to pay attorney fees for the defendants as well...

I didn't know the particulars of the suit until I read it... The magazine didn't mention Pep by name... How is the average reader going to connect the story to Pep??? ... And asking for 75 million dollars when your name isn't even mentioned??? ... That amount is going to turn a jury off immediately.

Even if I were a member of the jury and knew they were talking about Pep... I would laugh at the 75-million dollar demand... I would be one of the very few who knew it was Pep and might award him around 50 thousand dollars if that's what he were seeking... Asking for 75MM he can take a flying FUQ!!