BoxRec

Like Jack Dempsey... http://spam.com/2017/06/02/klit ... to-joshua/

He definitely won me over.... for at least one fight.

Impractical Poster wrote:He definitely won me over.... for at least one fight.

Agreed, throwback to the wlad I liked. Best performance of his career.

So, standing in front of an inexperienced foe and looking petrified to throw a punch is a victory in Wlad's mind?

After having him within one inch of a crushing defeat, and letting victory slip by?

Whatever floats Wlad's boat, i guess...

AJ is far from an "inexperienced foe" - well to your novice eye maybe he looks like one.

crow wrote:So, standing in front of an inexperienced foe and looking petrified to throw a punch is a victory in Wlad's mind?

After having him within one inch of a crushing defeat, and letting victory slip by?

Whatever floats Wlad's boat, i guess...

Wladimir caught AJ with some nice follow-up hooks and right hands.. But he missed some tremendous left hook finishers like he wound up and threw at Kubrat Pulev.. They hit Pulev on the button.. But he was unable to catch the more experienced (this was AJ's 4th Heavyweight Championship Fight and 4th victory) Joshua with any damaging follow up blows.. Wlad didn't have AJ within an inch of defeat either.. Reynaldo Snipes had Larry Holmes much closer to defeat.. Snipes was a terrible finisher and Wladimir is a very good one.. Suffering a knockdown and suffering a defeat are 2 different things Clyde -- especially when you're trying to finish off this caliber of Heavyweight.

I don't think Wlad's defeat/performance has done his reputation any harm at all and has probably enhanced it. He is now seen as a man who even at 41 years of age and after the longest break in his career, is capable of almost beating the young champion in an exhilarating battle that went right to the wire. Instead of a boring, efficient grinding machine he is now the courageous and exciting underdog.

At one point in round 6 I was screaming at Joshua to defend himself because his arms were dangling at his sides as if he could not muster the strength to hold them up. He didn't look like he had any chance of survival to me at that point. He certainly didn't have anything under control. I was thinking "Well he (AJ) has lost his title but he will learn a huge amount from this fight and he will come back stronger and win it back someday soon"

Wlad won me over in this one too. i'll admit it. He just kept getting up man and I can never question his heart again. But, he should wrap it up because I think that he can't outdo that performance and I think that the next one might be a romp with Joshua destroying him quickly. That's my opinion. But I'll tune in for sure and i'll be in Wlad's corner.

candyslim wrote:I don't think Wlad's defeat/performance has done his reputation any harm at all and has probably enhanced it. He is now seen as a man who even at 41 years of age and after the longest break in his career, is capable of almost beating the young champion in an exhilarating battle that went right to the wire. Instead of a boring, efficient grinding machine he is now the courageous and exciting underdog.

At one point in round 6 I was screaming at Joshua to defend himself because his arms were dangling at his sides as if he could not muster the strength to hold them up. He didn't look like he had any chance of survival to me at that point. He certainly didn't have anything under control. I was thinking "Well he (AJ) has lost his title but he will learn a huge amount from this fight and he will come back stronger and win it back someday soon"

Joshua was never as bad off like partisans make it sound.. By the 6th he already knew he could hurt Wladimir and put him down.. He knew the fight was his if he defended well, cleared his head, and played it smart.. His arms were never "dangling at his sides as if he couldn't muster the strength to hold them up." He was always under control and never did it look like he couldn't come back with his massive preparation and discipline.

I knew AJ would finish stronger because Wlad was not finding a willing target.. Unlike Ali, when he got nailed by Henry Cooper (who was 185-pounds with a ton of KO losses) a few seconds before the bell ended round 4 -- AJ had to work his way to the end of the round -- against a much bigger, stronger, more skilled and high octane finisher who wasn't blinded by cuts.. Ali had 22 pounds on Cooper, who looked like a white waif.

A lot of people invested a lot of intellectual capital in building a case for Klitschko -- because AJ was so green, with only 18 fights and so few rounds.. Luis Ortiz predicted Klitschko would win -- and do it with right hands. Ortiz is 38 and pulling hard for the old man with all the amateur pedigreed. Joshua disappointed them all by easily slipping and ducking any home run shots... cleverly bidding his time... and resuming punishing the ATG like he owned him.

Klitschko is still a stop contender, someone like Deontay Wilder would get KOed within 5 rounds by him for example, AJ even seriously struggled with him and Klitschko proved all over again that he was Joshua's toughest opponend ever.

Only Ortiz and Tyson Fury could bring him into trouble I think, or perhaps Povetkin.

AJ is too big and powerful for Povetkin and Wilder... Fury is too soft and mental to get his sh!t together... Ortiz is a possible victor, but his age is against him

Kalan wrote:

candyslim wrote:I don't think Wlad's defeat/performance has done his reputation any harm at all and has probably enhanced it. He is now seen as a man who even at 41 years of age and after the longest break in his career, is capable of almost beating the young champion in an exhilarating battle that went right to the wire. Instead of a boring, efficient grinding machine he is now the courageous and exciting underdog.

At one point in round 6 I was screaming at Joshua to defend himself because his arms were dangling at his sides as if he could not muster the strength to hold them up. He didn't look like he had any chance of survival to me at that point. He certainly didn't have anything under control. I was thinking "Well he (AJ) has lost his title but he will learn a huge amount from this fight and he will come back stronger and win it back someday soon"

Joshua was never as bad off like partisans make it sound.. By the 6th he already knew he could hurt Wladimir and put him down.. He knew the fight was his if he defended well, cleared his head, and played it smart.. His arms were never "dangling at his sides as if he couldn't muster the strength to hold them up." He was always under control and never did it look like he couldn't come back with his massive preparation and discipline.

I knew AJ would finish stronger because Wlad was not finding a willing target.. Unlike Ali, when he got nailed by Henry Cooper (who was 185-pounds with a ton of KO losses) a few seconds before the bell ended round 4 -- AJ had to work his way to the end of the round -- against a much bigger, stronger, more skilled and high octane finisher who wasn't blinded by cuts.. Ali had 22 pounds on Cooper, who looked like a white waif.

A lot of people invested a lot of intellectual capital in building a case for Klitschko -- because AJ was so green, with only 18 fights and so few rounds.. Luis Ortiz predicted Klitschko would win -- and do it with right hands. Ortiz is 38 and pulling hard for the old man with all the amateur pedigreed. Joshua disappointed them all by easily slipping and ducking any home run shots... cleverly bidding his time... and resuming punishing the ATG like he owned him.

I think we shall have to agree to disagree Kalan, because nothing and no one is ever going to convince me that Anthony Joshua wasn't within a hair's breadth of losing his title in that 6th round, and that's coming from someone who is a massive fan of, and believer in, that young man.

Kalan wrote:

crow wrote:So, standing in front of an inexperienced foe and looking petrified to throw a punch is a victory in Wlad's mind?

After having him within one inch of a crushing defeat, and letting victory slip by?

Whatever floats Wlad's boat, i guess...

Wladimir caught AJ with some nice follow-up hooks and right hands.. But he missed some tremendous left hook finishers like he wound up and threw at Kubrat Pulev.. They hit Pulev on the button.. But he was unable to catch the more experienced (this was AJ's 4th Heavyweight Championship Fight and 4th victory) Joshua with any damaging follow up blows.. Wlad didn't have AJ within an inch of defeat either.. Reynaldo Snipes had Larry Holmes much closer to defeat.. Snipes was a terrible finisher and Wladimir is a very good one.. Suffering a knockdown and suffering a defeat are 2 different things Clyde -- especially when you're trying to finish off this caliber of Heavyweight.

Reality is Wlad is kidding himself - and the public with it- in believing he's still willing to let it all hang on the line when it matters most, while he has all these millions waiting in his bank account.

Guy is a millionaire, and he certainly fought like one that night.

All the rest is BS from Mr Steelhammer.

You do know that nobody is talking about the fury fight? You should check out wlad/Joshua, very good bout.

Agree Wlad can hold his head up high. He fought a great fight. I obviously was supporting Joshua, but there was a part of me that didn't want Wlad to lose, such was his showing. Skilled and most importantly for me, gutsy. Sometimes it doesn't matter how skilled you are, it's your heart and will that pulls you through

Ossyrules wrote:Agree Wlad can hold his head up high. He fought a great fight. I obviously was supporting Joshua, but there was a part of me that didn't want Wlad to lose, such was his showing. Skilled and most importantly for me, gutsy. Sometimes it doesn't matter how skilled you are, it's your heart and will that pulls you through

Well said, Klitschko has brought a lot of class to boxing in an era when boxing really needed it (Floyd's a disaster as an ambassador).

candyslim wrote:

Kalan wrote:

candyslim wrote:I don't think Wlad's defeat/performance has done his reputation any harm at all and has probably enhanced it. He is now seen as a man who even at 41 years of age and after the longest break in his career, is capable of almost beating the young champion in an exhilarating battle that went right to the wire. Instead of a boring, efficient grinding machine he is now the courageous and exciting underdog.

At one point in round 6 I was screaming at Joshua to defend himself because his arms were dangling at his sides as if he could not muster the strength to hold them up. He didn't look like he had any chance of survival to me at that point. He certainly didn't have anything under control. I was thinking "Well he (AJ) has lost his title but he will learn a huge amount from this fight and he will come back stronger and win it back someday soon"

Joshua was never as bad off like partisans make it sound.. By the 6th he already knew he could hurt Wladimir and put him down.. He knew the fight was his if he defended well, cleared his head, and played it smart.. His arms were never "dangling at his sides as if he couldn't muster the strength to hold them up." He was always under control and never did it look like he couldn't come back with his massive preparation and discipline.

I knew AJ would finish stronger because Wlad was not finding a willing target.. Unlike Ali, when he got nailed by Henry Cooper (who was 185-pounds with a ton of KO losses) a few seconds before the bell ended round 4 -- AJ had to work his way to the end of the round -- against a much bigger, stronger, more skilled and high octane finisher who wasn't blinded by cuts.. Ali had 22 pounds on Cooper, who looked like a white waif.

A lot of people invested a lot of intellectual capital in building a case for Klitschko -- because AJ was so green, with only 18 fights and so few rounds.. Luis Ortiz predicted Klitschko would win -- and do it with right hands. Ortiz is 38 and pulling hard for the old man with all the amateur pedigreed. Joshua disappointed them all by easily slipping and ducking any home run shots... cleverly bidding his time... and resuming punishing the ATG like he owned him.

I think we shall have to agree to disagree Kalan, because nothing and no one is ever going to convince me that Anthony Joshua wasn't within a hair's breadth of losing his title in that 6th round, and that's coming from someone who is a massive fan of, and believer in, that young man.

Well... you should be even a more massive fan and believer in Joshua now. AJ wasn't in supreme difficultly like Archie Moore was when he came back to beat Yvon Durelle after getting knocked down 5 times... AJ's situation was more like Joe Louis getting nailed with a right from the much more experienced Max Schmeling.. Joshua has even less experience and fewer amateur fights than Louis had at that time -- but he cleverly worked his way out of danger.. Louis instinctively fought back very hard -- allowing Schmeling to keep Louis on the hook for a number of rounds -- nailing him with hard follow up right hands until he finally applied the finisher.. Joshua used the Gene Tunney versus Jack Dempsey strategy.. Tunney was down and hurt -- so he went on the defensive for a couple rounds -- and then fired back hard and floored Dempsey once he got his bearings... Tunney didn't usually throw right handers that hard but I think he was pissed at being knocked down for the first time in his life.

Well I will concede he did fantastically well to keep clear of trouble and survive until he was sufficiently restored to mount another offensive. I take your earlier point that Klitschko needed to be put under pressure in round 5 as he was far too comfortable up until then, and seemingly content to box at his own choice of pace. Something had to be done. Having said that I do think AJ overdid it and punched himself to a standstill, leaving himself far more vulnerable than Klitschko had been at any time up until that point.

The downside of having an immensely powerful physique like Joshua's, it needs a lot of fuel to power it. Frequently we see boxers with unimpressive physiques lacking in definition, who are long on durability and stamina, often at the expense of punching power. Joshua lacks nothing in conditioning but he has to be careful with energy management, because the awesome power and strength that derives from that mighty engine comes at a price. He will have learnt loads from that Klitschko fight and he'll know next time how long to keep on the gas and when to slacken off, coast, conserve, and recharge.

I'd be delighted to be wrong about AJ's proximity to defeat in round 6 because if you were right it would mean AJ is even better than I think he is and if that's the case then he is surely bound for the hall of fame.

I've seen many of those unimpressive physiques: Malignaggi, Curtis Cokes, De La Hoya, Hearns, Laguna, Buchanan, Benvenuti etc. I saw them gassed out, taking breaks, getting driven around the ring under a hail of fire, nailed to the ropes, and getting overpowered and rubbed out by stronger, more muscular foes.

No matter, you have to be smart.. Regardless of what kind of condition you're in, you're going to get gassed at some point. You try to get somebody out and they just don't go out according to plan A. There was a lot of back and forth in the Hagler-Mugabi fight as they took turns trying to end it. Hagler took a Hell of a lot of punishment, but he was the better boxer and more under control.. Whenever Mugabi mounted an offensive and started connecting, you sensed he lacked the sophistication, size, or strength to end it.. He was a mile behind in ring smarts and paid for it in several fights.

The big difference is Joshua's coolness under pressure, his focus on boxing skills, and his mental approach.. That's why he came back so dominantly.. George Foreman ran himself out of gas against lite hitters.. Anybody who came in leading with his head, Foreman ripped them apart quickly -- but inevitably, when you get to the world level you're going to face a skilled and clever boxer who can jab and pepper your head off if you don't have super good skills.. like Dereck Chisora when he faced Tyson Fury.. Every attack he mounted was useless.. He couldn't land effectively and his will shattered like a crystal sphere.

Joshua is a special fighter. Klitschko threw everything in the book at Joshua and he endured it and refused to wilt. AJ has an unbreakable will and spirit, an uncanny capacity to hang in there despite the worst of storms. He looked as out on his feet and as close to a KO loss as anybody has ever looked in a hwt title fight yet he refused to break. This guy is very special and he will only get better.

AJ was hurt but steady... About like Tunney after Dempsey put him down... Patterson looked out of it quickly in both Liston fights... Frazier seemed to be going, going, gone in the Foreman fight... Norton couldn't get out of his own way versus Foreman... Radamacher looked like a doddering fool against Patterson after he went down for the 5th time... Willard looked like a crushed target by the 3rd round of the Dempsey fight.

So yeah... there were a lot of folks in Heavyweight Championship fights who seemed a lot more lost and hopeless than Joshua.

Kalan wrote:AJ was hurt but steady... About like Tunney after Dempsey put him down... Patterson looked out of it quickly in both Liston fights... Frazier seemed to be going, going, gone in the Foreman fight... Norton couldn't get out of his own way versus Foreman... Radamacher looked like a doddering fool against Patterson after he went down for the 5th time... Willard looked like a crushed target by the 3rd round of the Dempsey fight.

So yeah... there were a lot of folks in Heavyweight Championship fights who seemed a lot more lost and hopeless than Joshua.

Yes, gentlemen, and let us not neglect to mention how utterly defeated Onomastus of Smyrna looked before rallying to stop Kleitomachos at the 23rd Olympiad.

You don't have to go back to ancient Greece to find Heavyweight Champions who rallied.... Patterson was down twice in the 1st round in the Johannson rubber match. He worked his way out of trouble and won.... Patterson was hurt bad in the 2nd round when Pete Rademacher decked him. He recovered and brutalized the amateur.... They claim Marciano was seconds from a KO loss when he was floored by Moore on another thread. He wasn't and clubbed Moore down.... Jim Jeffries was badly trashed for 23 rounds by Jim Corbett in their 1900 fight. Jeff looked a pity. Then he landed a left hook to the chin which put Corbett out cold in a Title Fight scheduled for 25-rounds.... Walcott had Marciano down and was winning through 11. He lacked durability and was stopped in the 13th.

squiggy wrote:

Kalan wrote:AJ was hurt but steady... About like Tunney after Dempsey put him down... Patterson looked out of it quickly in both Liston fights... Frazier seemed to be going, going, gone in the Foreman fight... Norton couldn't get out of his own way versus Foreman... Radamacher looked like a doddering fool against Patterson after he went down for the 5th time... Willard looked like a crushed target by the 3rd round of the Dempsey fight.

So yeah... there were a lot of folks in Heavyweight Championship fights who seemed a lot more lost and hopeless than Joshua.

Yes, gentlemen, and let us not neglect to mention how utterly defeated Onomastus of Smyrna looked before rallying to stop Kleitomachos at the 23rd Olympiad.

I'm guessing that one isn't on you-tube Squiggy?

What you say is true Kalan - I'm not suggesting anyone of unimposing physique can run all day and is impervious to punishment, but there are many examples of big hitters with glass jaws, guys who look like body-builders who have suspect stamina, and guys who don't look much but can absorb a good shot and have good stamina. That doesn't mean those in the last category are going to be successful necessarily but it helps.

These combinations I listed are almost a cliche, and cliches become cliches for a reason.

candyslim wrote:

squiggy wrote:

Kalan wrote:AJ was hurt but steady... About like Tunney after Dempsey put him down... Patterson looked out of it quickly in both Liston fights... Frazier seemed to be going, going, gone in the Foreman fight... Norton couldn't get out of his own way versus Foreman... Radamacher looked like a doddering fool against Patterson after he went down for the 5th time... Willard looked like a crushed target by the 3rd round of the Dempsey fight.

So yeah... there were a lot of folks in Heavyweight Championship fights who seemed a lot more lost and hopeless than Joshua.

Yes, gentlemen, and let us not neglect to mention how utterly defeated Onomastus of Smyrna looked before rallying to stop Kleitomachos at the 23rd Olympiad.

I'm guessing that one isn't on you-tube Squiggy?

What you say is true Kalan - I'm not suggesting anyone of unimposing physique can run all day and is impervious to punishment, but there are many examples of big hitters with glass jaws, guys who look like body-builders who have suspect stamina, and guys who don't look much but can absorb a good shot and have good stamina. That doesn't mean those in the last category are going to be successful necessarily but it helps.

These combinations I listed are almost a cliche, and cliches become cliches for a reason.

Let's face it... No boxer looks like a body builder or ever did..

They don't build up massive diamond shaped calves, huge thighs, super muscular, extremely broad backs, or any muscles that are for show and aren't athletically functional.. The worst case of an over muscular boxer I've ever seen was Frank Bruno in his Tyson rematch.. I don't know what FB was thinking, but he looked pretty idiotic. He didn't perform like he did in their 1st fight. Tyson was loading and swinging like Dempsey vs Willard. He couldn't miss. Bruno was a lunkhead like Willard. He fought well against the inept Joe Bugner, and beat his ass good. He managed to beat Oliver McCall somehow and win a World Title. His 2nd fight with Lennox Lewis he fought well for 5 or 6 rounds.. I don't think he did a lot of flexibility and speed training -- and he certainly didn't slip or duck punches well, or counter-punch well. He couldn't defend himself with any real mastery.

It's true that you can build your body wrong and many boxers have done this. But Joshua was always extremely fast and athletic as Hell.. He has some of the best experts around him.. He's very lithe and flexible and can go tons of rounds without getting winded or tired.. The biggest thing for him is to continue to focus on boxing skills. At the end of the day, skills pay the bills.. They're the only thing you can have to beat somebody as big, tall, strong, fast, and athletic as you are. He's going to need all he can get, and he does seem to be focused on that.