BoxRec

Hopkins was the IBF mandatory for Toney's title but Toney elected to vacate the title and go to super middle. Unlike Spence who refused to give up his world title. We all know Toney was a warrior and a beast but could this have been a disguised artful duck by Toney? Hopkins then fought Jones for the vacated IBF title and lost a close decision to Roy Jones on a Bowe title fight undercard in Wash DC.

I remember reading that around that time there was a minor scuffle at a Toney press conference when Hopkins showed up in executioner gear, Butch Lewis was involved as well. But have never seen the footage.

Given Toney's notorious troubles with the scale at those lower weight classes, I think he probably genuinely couldn't make the weight anymore and moved up because of that. I guarantee you he wasn't afraid to fight Hopkins. Hopkins wasn't even established as somebody to be afraid of at that time. He was just another guy.

gilgamesh wrote:Given Toney's notorious troubles with the scale at those lower weight classes, I think he probably genuinely couldn't make the weight anymore and moved up because of that. I guarantee you he wasn't afraid to fight Hopkins. Hopkins wasn't even established as somebody to be afraid of at that time. He was just another guy.

But the insiders knew Hopkins was a beast. maybe Toney knew too and decided to run. Who did Toney fight in his 168 debut? If he picked a patsy it would lend evidence to the theory he dodged Hopkins

montrealsuper wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:Given Toney's notorious troubles with the scale at those lower weight classes, I think he probably genuinely couldn't make the weight anymore and moved up because of that. I guarantee you he wasn't afraid to fight Hopkins. Hopkins wasn't even established as somebody to be afraid of at that time. He was just another guy.

But the insiders knew Hopkins was a beast. maybe Toney knew too and decided to run. Who did Toney fight in his 168 debut? If he picked a patsy it would lend evidence to the theory he dodged Hopkins

The insiders knew Hopkins was a beast huh? I kinda doubt that. It took a while before Hopkins was getting treated as a serious somebody in the sport. He didn't win his Middleweight title until 1995 and came up short on his first 2 attempts, and throughout a great deal of his initial title reign he wasn't seen as all that big a deal.

Now obviously history has shown that Hopkins WAS a big deal and is in fact a great fighter, but he wasn't perceived that way in the 90's, certainly not in 1993.

Then Toney would have fought Hopkins if he was a soft touch. The Hopkins confrontation with Toney happened I believe at the press conference following the Tiberi fight at Taj mahal in AC. But Toney elected to fight Glenn Wolfe, Ricky Stackhouse and a Mike McCallum rematch all at 160 rather than Hopkins. After beating the Body Snatcher again Toney elected to jump up to super middle to fight Doug Dewitt and then Iran Barkley for his 168 IBF title. So it does have a hint of a scent of a duck by Toney. Just because the fans and the media were unaware of how good Hopkins was in 92-93 doesn't mean anything really. Obviously Hopkins was seen by Team Toney as a high risk.

montrealsuper wrote:Then Toney would have fought Hopkins if he was a soft touch. The Hopkins confrontation with Toney happened I believe at the press conference following the Tiberi fight at Taj mahal in AC. But Toney elected to fight Glenn Wolfe, Ricky Stackhouse and a Mike McCallum rematch all at 160 rather than Hopkins. After beating the Body Snatcher again Toney elected to jump up to super middle to fight Doug Dewitt and then Iran Barkley for his 168 IBF title. So it does have a hint of a scent of a duck by Toney. Just because the fans and the media were unaware of how good Hopkins was in 92-93 doesn't mean anything really. Obviously Hopkins was seen by Team Toney as a high risk.

Probably more like Hopkins was seen as low money. I'm sure Toney made a lot more to rematch McCallum than he would've made to fight Hopkins.

montrealsuper wrote:Then Toney would have fought Hopkins if he was a soft touch. The Hopkins confrontation with Toney happened I believe at the press conference following the Tiberi fight at Taj mahal in AC. But Toney elected to fight Glenn Wolfe, Ricky Stackhouse and a Mike McCallum rematch all at 160 rather than Hopkins. After beating the Body Snatcher again Toney elected to jump up to super middle to fight Doug Dewitt and then Iran Barkley for his 168 IBF title. So it does have a hint of a scent of a duck by Toney. Just because the fans and the media were unaware of how good Hopkins was in 92-93 doesn't mean anything really. Obviously Hopkins was seen by Team Toney as a high risk.

Obviously? I don't see the obvious aspect.....I think what was obvious is that Toney didn't much fear anyone...ever....whether that's smart or not...I won't comment....

You can bet they were worried about income, and the who was probably not all that important at the Toney Camp.

He was not someone who ducked anyone. And there's little evidence otherwise, other than what is dredged up from the imagination of those who may have suspicions.

Hopkins was no less $ than Glenn Wolfe or Dave Tiberi or Doug Dewitt. A champion is legally bound to fight his mandatory challenger yet Toney showed an apparent disinterest to fight Hopkins. Now in hindsight it looks like a possible duck. Years later even Hopkins ducked Adamek. Hopkins expressed interest to win a cruiser title and had specified Adamek as a target but after Adamek destroyed Banks Hopkins suddenly lost interest. There was even a story about Team Adamek confronting Hopkins at the Larry Hazzard dinner in Newark but Hopkins pretended to ignore them while seated at a table fiddling with his cell phone.

montrealsuper wrote:Hopkins was no less $ than Glenn Wolfe or Dave Tiberi or Doug Dewitt. A champion is legally bound to fight his mandatory challenger yet Toney showed an apparent disinterest to fight Hopkins. Now in hindsight it looks like a possible duck. Years later even Hopkins ducked Adamek. Hopkins expressed interest to win a cruiser title and had specified Adamek as a target but after Adamek destroyed Banks Hopkins suddenly lost interest. There was even a story about Team Adamek confronting Hopkins at the Larry Hazzard dinner in Newark but Hopkins pretended to ignore them while seated at a table fiddling with his cell phone.

Hopkins never competed as a Cruiserweight so was never under any obligation to fight Adamek. Just because he discussed it at one time as a possibility in his career doesn't mean he ducked him when it didn't happen. There's been several potential fights fall through for one reason or another.

Hopkins said he wanted TA's cruiser title and after TA beat Banks Hopkins changed his mind - it's not an obvious blatant Fraudweather Canelo style obscene duck but still it's a duck - a subtle under the radar barely noticeable duck

Just like Lewis dodging the Vitali rematch could be considered a duck or at least a semi-duck

Any fight in history that did not happen could be filed in this category.

Imagined suspicions. And in some cases you will be right.

You'll just never know when, unless someone goes on the record directly....or enough people in someones camp will put some credible legs to the suspicions.

But in some cases the "rumors" support a fighters willingness to engage. In Toney's case, if there was method to his madness, it probably did not involve reluctance to fight.

That's MY imagined suspicion. Based on his history, and actions.

Then about a decade ago Hopkins and Toney nearly fought again as both were doing the interviews on Boxing talk and the hype was starting to explode but then suddenly the fight died or wasn't signed and again the near fight was a miss. Again it's unclear if it was a duck or how/why the fight suddenly collapsed after it was looking totally set. The hype was gold with both taking shots at each other - recall Toney cracking jokes about Hopkin's teeth needing barbed wire as dental floss :) It has to rank as one of the great mysteries of boxing: Why Toney vs Hopkins nearly happened twice but both times it suspiciously fell apart. Could it be the possible very very rare double duck?

gilgamesh wrote:

montrealsuper wrote:Hopkins was no less $ than Glenn Wolfe or Dave Tiberi or Doug Dewitt. A champion is legally bound to fight his mandatory challenger yet Toney showed an apparent disinterest to fight Hopkins. Now in hindsight it looks like a possible duck. Years later even Hopkins ducked Adamek. Hopkins expressed interest to win a cruiser title and had specified Adamek as a target but after Adamek destroyed Banks Hopkins suddenly lost interest. There was even a story about Team Adamek confronting Hopkins at the Larry Hazzard dinner in Newark but Hopkins pretended to ignore them while seated at a table fiddling with his cell phone.

Hopkins never competed as a Cruiserweight so was never under any obligation to fight Adamek. Just because he discussed it at one time as a possibility in his career doesn't mean he ducked him when it didn't happen. There's been several potential fights fall through for one reason or another.

Hopkins, during quiet spells in his career, called out a few people at super middleweight and cruiserweight with it never coming to anything.

Ottke, Toney, Adamek

And so on

After Toney beat Jirov in 2003 fight it prompted Toney to say, "he wrote a cheque his ass couldn't cash."

montrealsuper wrote:Then about a decade ago Hopkins and Toney nearly fought again as both were doing the interviews on Boxing talk and the hype was starting to explode but then suddenly the fight died or wasn't signed and again the near fight was a miss. Again it's unclear if it was a duck or how/why the fight suddenly collapsed after it was looking totally set. The hype was gold with both taking shots at each other - recall Toney cracking jokes about Hopkin's teeth needing barbed wire as dental floss :) It has to rank as one of the great mysteries of boxing: Why Toney vs Hopkins nearly happened twice but both times it suspiciously fell apart. Could it be the possible very very rare double duck?

Wasn't Hopkins still with Don King, had an issue with the cut King was taking. Called out Toney and demanded a certain amount.

This was a troubled time in the career of Hopkins, and after beating Trinidad in 2001 he didn't get another big fight for three years when he faced de la Hoya.

Toney fought Sam Peter at heavyweight when he seemed an absolute monster, despite a loss to Kiltschko.

This leads me to believe Toney didn't fear losing to anyone.

theone wrote:Toney fought Sam Peter at heavyweight when he seemed an absolute monster, despite a loss to Kiltschko.

This leads me to believe Toney didn't fear losing to anyone.

goo d point - hopkins was taller than toney but would never fight anyone at hwt much less samuel peter

Don't know how serious he was, but Hopkins even mentioned moving up to heavyweight and fighting Maskaev.

Toney and Hopkins would've matched up very badly. At any weight. Neither were comfortable fighting going forward. Both can be counter punching perfection against an aggressor - but when they have to fight going forward they're often falling gracelessly off balance. It would've been one hell of a frustrating bout with both preferring the other to lead.

Autobarn wrote:Toney and Hopkins would've matched up very badly. At any weight. Neither were comfortable fighting going forward. Both can be counter punching perfection against an aggressor - but when they have to fight going forward they're often falling gracelessly off balance. It would've been one hell of a frustrating bout with both preferring the other to lead.

I agree entirely with this assessment.

Autobarn wrote:

montrealsuper wrote:Then about a decade ago Hopkins and Toney nearly fought again as both were doing the interviews on Boxing talk and the hype was starting to explode but then suddenly the fight died or wasn't signed and again the near fight was a miss. Again it's unclear if it was a duck or how/why the fight suddenly collapsed after it was looking totally set. The hype was gold with both taking shots at each other - recall Toney cracking jokes about Hopkin's teeth needing barbed wire as dental floss :) It has to rank as one of the great mysteries of boxing: Why Toney vs Hopkins nearly happened twice but both times it suspiciously fell apart. Could it be the possible very very rare double duck?

Wasn't Hopkins still with Don King, had an issue with the cut King was taking. Called out Toney and demanded a certain amount.

This was a troubled time in the career of Hopkins, and after beating Trinidad in 2001 he didn't get another big fight for three years when he faced de la Hoya.

Yes, Hopkins ducked out of fights with Roy Jones and Joe Calzaghe circa 2002. I don't remember Toney ducking anyone. The OP sounds fairly moronic with his conspiracy theories.

Hopkins was the one chasing the Roy rematch and verbally abused Roy during the joint interview after they both won at different sites. Hopkins fought Calzaghe he never tried to duck Joe. We need precision in this debate not goofball nonsense.

Hopkins wanted 50-50 for a Jones rematch. When Jones was still Jones. When both were vying for p4p #1 spot. That's why it never happened until it didn't matter.

This would've been another ugly fight with Jones' superior athleticism winning the day. Hopkins didn't have to tools to cut the ring down on Jones; he's not very good fighting coming forward.

It also could've had a bad effect on Hopkins' career. Imagine he loses to Jones in a rematch at light heavyweight. Where else to go, but back down to middleweight? Moving up and down in weight around the age of 36-7. He wouldn't have got to 20 defenses or a lucrative DLH win.

It all worked out nicely for Hopkins, being cautious with his middleweight title, waiting for his Don King contract to expire, etc etc. Ended up outlasting absolutely everybody and getting the paydays on his own stubborn terms.

Read a bit of this thread and saw where it was going

Toney didn't duck hopkins

To suggest otherwise you're looking for something that isn't there