BoxRec

I'd read somewhere on the internet that Joe Louis avoided top black contenders in his era. The same way Jack Dempsey avoided Harry Wills and Sam Langford that could have beaten him. Is it this true?

In all the years it has existed, I've never known the internet to contain information that would mislead anyone on any subject.

Supposedly, didn't fight Elmer Ray and Lem Franklin. Didn't fight Jimmy Bivins at the right time, but that was because of the war.

No champion is ever going to fight every single possible challenger.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of Jack Johnson? I know he never fought the black challengers like Sam Langford or McVea.

As the world heavyweight champion, Joe Louis did make three title defenses while fighting black fighters, John Henry Lewis (once) and Jersey Joe Walcott (twice). Those three title defenses are two more than any previous world heavyweight champion had in bouts with black fighters. Before Louis became the world champion, there were only three world heavyweight bouts in which black fighters were the challengers. In those bouts, Jack Johnson, Battling Jim Johnson and Joe Louis were the black fighters who fought as challengers against Tommy Burns, Jack Johnson and Jim Braddock respectively.

By the time that Jack Dempsey was the world heavyweight champion, Sam Langford was definitely on the downside of his great career and no longer a viable contender. On the other hand, Harry Wills was a top contender almost the entire time that Dempsey was the champion.

Were there any truly viable black contenders for Joe Louis's world heavyweight title before Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles came along as heavyweight contenders? I guess that a case could be made for Jimmy Bivins, but Louis was serving in the U.S. Army during World War II when Bivins was at his peak. Lem Franklin was a contender for a very short time at best before sustaining defeats which removed him from the picture. Both Roscoe Toles and Elmer "Violent" Ray faced a lot of inferior opposition. Yes, Ray later fought both Walcott and Charles, but Walcott emerged as a contender at the time. Charles really didn't emerge as a top heavyweight contender until after Louis retired for the first time.

- Chuck Johnston

Joe Louis never wanted to avoid any black contenders.
(such as Leroy Haynes,Tiger Jack Fox ,Eddie Blunt and Elmer"Violent" Ray.
It was his managers and particularly his promter Mike Jacobs who did't want him
to risk the title fighting any of them.
It was after his promter died that Louis fought Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles,Jimmy Bivens..

BTW Jack Dempsey never avoided Harry Wills either ,that was Tex Rickard's doing.
Dempsey would have knocked out Wills Im sure.

I am convinced that Franklin and Ray would've given Louis some good fights, especially Franklin.

I was surprised to hear that Louis fought only (three fights) two Black contenders; once pointed out it makes you think.

If you look deeper, two of those fights were with Walcott: the first defense was originally signed as a non-title fight and then bumped up to a title shot; the second fight resulted only because of the disputed decision. You could argue that neither were 'intended' defenses. Then add the CW that John Henry Lewis (a shot fighter) only got his shot because he was a friend of Louis' (a final payday) and you can argue that Louis never 'intended' to defend against any top Black fighters. (Maybe.)

I will suggest that race was never the issue; if you want to evaluate the match-making you have to start with Mike Jacobs. I suspect that all those matches were arranged relevant to how they would affect Uncle Mike in the end. I.e. Money, contracts, and having the right connections drove the match-making, not race; the resulting racism was more de facto than deliberate.

In the words of Fred Sanford, someone should've have Jacobs one across the lips.

Re Dempsey-Wills: David Pietrusza Rothstein suggests the NYSAC tried to force a Dempsey-Wills fight, not out of athletic or racial fairness, but because several Tammany politicians (Big Tom Foley's guys) owned a significant portion of Wills, arguing that greed not altruism cost New York the Tunney fight.

So who are the black fighters Joe ducked? Violent Ray?

During most of Louis' reign, there was not one guy who stood out as a contender. there were a lot of guys who were roughly even; some white and some black. There was a school of thought that a fight between two black fighters would not draw as well everything being being even.

Would have been nice if a few black contenders would have got a title shot ahead of stiffs like Johnny Paycheck and Jack Roper, but that is the way it goes.

For a short time Bivins was clearly the best contender. If it was before or after WWII, he may have got a shot. Louis probably would have beaten him; it may have been a good fight. I'm sure Louis himself had no fear of anyone out there.

Tomasino wrote:So who are the black fighters Joe ducked? Violent Ray?

Joe Louis boxed Violent Ray twice in exhibitions.
the second one he gave Ray an ass-whupping,but I think Ray
was still recovering from a hard fight with Holman I believe.

I remember back in the book of Joe Louis 1978 autobiography MY LIFE.
There is an out-standing listing of exhibitions he had done,particularly after 1946.
A large number were with black fighters.

which White fighters of the 1930's and early 1940's would have given Joe Louis a better fight,
then some of those on the Bum-Of-the-Month club ?
How do you think Jimmy Adamick would have done ?

In the United States, the boxing scene was far different during the 1930s and early 1940s than it was during the late 1940s and the 1950s. That may be one reason why Joe Louis was fighting more black fighters after 1945 than he did before.

- Chuck Johnston

JACK JOHNSON AVOIDED BLACK CONTENDERS

Sidney Carton wrote:JACK JOHNSON AVOIDED BLACK CONTENDERS

Outside of Langford, who did he avoid? And he beat him.

Joe Jeannette and Sam McVey. Never defended the title against any of them. They were the top three contenders for several years. He probably would have beaten Langford, Jeannette, and McVey early in his title reign before he got too old. However, the bottom line is he didn't.

A number of 1930s and 1940s black fighters, including the heavyweights, didn't have managers who had the right connections or knew what they were doing. For instance, Jersey Joe Walcott really didn't start getting lucrative bouts until Felix Bocchicchio became his manager. That may have been one reason why Joe Louis was not making title defenses against black fighters on a regular basis until he fought Walcott.

- Chuck Johnston

I think that played a big part of this. The chances of a good but not great heavyweight getting a title shot over a white heavyweight was not going to happen.
If a black heavyweight would have emerged as head and shoulders above every other contender, he probably would have got a title shot.